Ep67: Why Great Leaders Learn Through Failure with Melisa Buie

Recommended Episodes

• Ep45: Human-Centred Leadership & Resilience – How to Build Sustainable High Performance with Lisa Boyd
• Ep57: Curiosity as Competitive Advantage – How Leaders Stay Relevant in the Age of AI with David Feavearyear
• Ep64: Leading Under Pressure Without Losing Your Humanity with Kate Adams

Failure is something most of us try to avoid, yet it is often where our greatest learning begins. In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by engineer, researcher, leadership expert, and author Melisa Buie to explore why curiosity, experimentation, and reflection are becoming essential skills for modern leaders.

Drawing on a career spanning engineering, operational excellence, leadership, and problem solving, Melisa shares why technical expertise alone is no longer enough. Together, Helen and Melisa discuss how leaders can build confidence by embracing uncertainty, learning from setbacks, and creating cultures where experimentation leads to innovation rather than fear.

This is a thought-provoking conversation for leaders, technical professionals, and organisations looking to develop more curious, resilient, and human-centred teams.

Topics Discussed

•  Why failure is one of our greatest teachers 
•  The role of curiosity in leadership and innovation 
•  How technical experts become stronger leaders 
•  Creating psychologically safe environments for experimentation 
•  Reflection as a tool for continuous improvement 
•  Building confidence through action instead of perfection 
•  The relationship between operational excellence and human leadership 
•  Helping teams solve problems more effectively 
•  Why AI makes human judgement even more valuable 
•  Turning setbacks into opportunities for growth

View extended shownotes here

Further links to follow:

Read HUMAN-WISE: How to lead from within and sell with confidence

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Transcript

 Ep. 67. Why Great Leaders Learn Through Failure with Melisa Buie

[00:00:00]

[00:00:29] 

[00:00:29] Helen Wada: Welcome 

[00:00:30] Meet Melissa Buie

[00:00:39] Helen Wada: to another episode of HumanWise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Melissa Buie join me all the way from Connecticut. Melissa, welcome to the show. For those of you that have been listening for a while, Dr. Melissa Buie is a problem-solving expert, author, and focused on operational excellence across You're best known for bridging the gap between academic theory and real-world practice. You really like getting under the skin of 

[00:00:58] Helen Wada: what makes 

[00:00:59] Helen Wada: [00:01:00] people tick, and what makes organizations You grew up on a farm in Alabama. Goodness, you'll have to tell us a little bit about that. And, and has really moved through studies in mathematics, engineering nuclear engineering, and physics, I, I believe, Melissa.

[00:01:17] Helen Wada: So there's 

[00:01:17] Melisa Buie: Edit correct ... 

[00:01:18] Helen Wada: lots of

[00:01:19] Helen Wada: technical expertise there, which is what we talk about in HumanWise, actually how do we bring these technical experts and brilliant individuals into the world of working, so having conversations that matter, conversations that count, to really shape how we as individuals lead and organizations operate in the complex work that, that we have today.

[00:01:42] Helen Wada: You, you have been a research scientist philosophy and leadership, where you've been looking at lean and continuous improvement. But actually, where we connected was through our author group, through your bestselling book, Face Plant: Free Yourself from Failure's I have to say that again. [00:02:00] Free Yourself from Failure's Funk.

[00:02:02] Helen Wada: If anybody can say that af- after a couple of glasses of wine, I raise, raise a 

[00:02:06] Helen Wada: toast to you. 

[00:02:07] Helen Wada: Problem Solving for New Engineers: What Every Engineering Manager Wants You to Know. That's your second book, Melissa, and actually really links into this problem that I see across the world is that how do brilliant experts lead and sell with confidence?

[00:02:22] Helen Wada: Because actually, what you'll have seen in your career is you're, you're trained and developed through, through 

[00:02:28] Helen Wada: everything 

[00:02:28] Helen Wada: that you know, and as we know now, AI is And no longer do we need to, to just know what we learn in school and, and through university careers, and, and even in 

[00:02:42] Helen Wada: the 

[00:02:42] Helen Wada: workplace, but 

[00:02:43] Helen Wada: actually we need to 

[00:02:44] Helen Wada: take a step out of our 

[00:02:45] Helen Wada: comfort 

[00:02:46] Helen Wada: zone, maybe learn from And so I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today. As you are entering the end stages and so you should share with us that rich wisdom that you've [00:03:00] learnt over Welcome.

[00:03:03] Melisa Buie: Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.

[00:03:05] Helen Wada: Oh, it's, it's a, a real pleasure. 

[00:03:07] Curiosity and Problem Solving

[00:03:07] Helen Wada: We're talking about being human, Melissa. Tell us a little bit more. I've given the listeners an overview of a little bit about you and your career, but tell us a little bit more about Melissa as a, as a human being

[00:03:17] Melisa Buie: Well,

[00:03:18] Melisa Buie: I am a I'm very

[00:03:20] Melisa Buie: curious.

[00:03:21] Melisa Buie: So I love problem-solving, as you mentioned

[00:03:26] Melisa Buie: the intro. And so for me, that extends into all areas of life.

[00:03:33] Melisa Buie: So,

[00:03:34] Melisa Buie: From playing board games figuring out how to navigate the navigate the neighborhood and, what- whatever area of life I'm,

[00:03:45] Melisa Buie: in- entering. I love to bring that curiosity and ask questions and just what if a lot. 

[00:03:53] Helen Wada: And that's probably led you to, to journey in- into the career that you've got right, right now and, and working [00:04:00] with such a variety of people. We, we talk about the human advantage, talking about being and I always ask my guests with the one question to stand up. What does being human at work 

[00:04:12] Helen Wada: mean to 

[00:04:13] Fear of Failure at Work

[00:04:13] Melisa Buie: I thought about this a lot. I think for me, being human at work means really acknowledging something that we know but rarely say out loud, that failure terrifies us, and that terror

[00:04:29] Melisa Buie: follows

[00:04:30] Melisa Buie: us into meeting rooms, it follows us into emails, it follows us into presentations. We like to pretend that we leave our emotions at the door as soon as we badge into the office, but we don't. We carry the shame from a project that tanked or the fear of looking incompetent or, you know, guilt about a decision that hurt someone on our team. Those are profoundly human [00:05:00] experiences. And what we found writing Faceplant is that most of us, we've organized our entire lives, professional and personal, around not failing. So rather than building our lives around possibility, we're building our lives around avoidance

[00:05:25] Melisa Buie: So

[00:05:26] Melisa Buie: for me, as a scientist, I love exploring, and that means we're gonna fail.

[00:05:33] Melisa Buie: We're... ...It, it is just naturally if I'm running experiments, some of them are gonna fail, and that's how I learn. So being human in my role in operations and engineering is about creating space to say, "That didn't work."

[00:05:51] Melisa Buie: so...

[00:05:52] Melisa Buie: but here's what I'm learning from it. And- ...that, if as long as there's no fear around being [00:06:00] labeled, or demoted, or written off, it it means that understanding when things go wrong,

[00:06:09] Melisa Buie: that 

[00:06:10] Melisa Buie: our,

[00:06:10] Melisa Buie: our brains, they hi- they get hijacked. And we can't, when our amygdala takes over, the limbic system, the ancient caveman part of our brain, our rational thinking completely shuts down. So

[00:06:26] Melisa Buie: and,

[00:06:27] Melisa Buie: and when that happens, we default to

[00:06:30] Melisa Buie: kind 

[00:06:30] Melisa Buie: of these 

[00:06:31] Melisa Buie: autopilot human beings.

[00:06:34] Melisa Buie: We, we,

[00:06:35] Melisa Buie: we're no longer, we're no longer actively choosing from our human position. We're on autopilot, and we're just responding, we're reacting, and those are

[00:06:50] Melisa Buie: very

[00:06:50] Melisa Buie: very well-defined responses that take place, and they show up every day. So being human at [00:07:00] work is about having the courage and the tools to really interrupt that autopilot and choose a completely different response.

[00:07:12] Sales Confidence and Pressure

[00:07:12] Helen Wada: I think it's fascinating, Melissa. I think, I, I wholeheartedly agree w- with where, what you've just shared there. As I work with a number of commercial leaders. I l- I work with a lot of brilliant experts 

[00:07:23] Helen Wada: that are

[00:07:24] Helen Wada: that 

[00:07:25] Helen Wada: great at what they do, but actually lack the confidence, lack the self-confidence to,

[00:07:31] Helen Wada: Mm 

[00:07:32] Helen Wada: Sell what they're capable of, create new client relationships because there's a fear there.

[00:07:38] Helen Wada: And, and so much of what I saw in my 30-year career through professional services and working in industry was that a thing like sales training is, is process led. It's these are the steps that you need to take. This is what you need 

[00:07:52] Helen Wada: to 

[00:07:52] Helen Wada: do. But actually, what I saw as a global client leader and th- actually [00:08:00] not about the Yes, there's an element of discipline 

[00:08:04] Helen Wada: in there, and 

[00:08:04] Helen Wada: we all need to think about how we structure our days and how we prioritize what's important. But for me, what I see with experienced individuals that I work is that fear of failure. And actually, we worry that it's not going to work, and therefore, the, the biggest, the worst negotiator in the room is often ourselves.

[00:08:27] Helen Wada: And I, I wrote in my newsletter last week, I was talking about ... I was actually talking about the third place playoff for the football with England and France because actually, it was a game that nobody wanted to play, that they all just went in. And look at the number of goals that were scored.

[00:08:43] Helen Wada: It was six-four to England But I looked at that and, and yes, you've got the different team structures slightly, but actually the pressure was off, Melissa. 

[00:08:53] Melisa Buie: Mhm to 

[00:08:54] Helen Wada: win was off because nobody cared. And then actually what you [00:09:00] see is people thriving. And I see that on a daily basis with individuals that I work with, whether that's accountants, lawyers, engineers, executive coaches, all brilliant at what they do, ...but with that fear of failure around creating their own business and, and ultimately winning work and, and help- helping others.

[00:09:25] Helen Wada: And so I think it's fascinating that we spent a lot of time on process rather than, and I'm gonna come to you in a moment about those tools and techniques, to unpick how can we unlock to really thrive in

[00:09:44] Helen Wada: in the- Mm

[00:09:45] Helen Wada: complex and uncertain world for me, we need to get deeper into ourselves in, in all of this.

[00:09:56] Melisa Buie: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[00:09:57] FREE Model and Writing

[00:09:57] Melisa Buie: And one of the most, one of the most important tools is reflection, and it's a part of the, the model that we developed, which we called FREE, which is in the title, but it's an acronym that stands for focus, reflect, explore, and engage.

[00:10:16] Melisa Buie: And as that second step, it comes... This process was developed as out of our work in lean manufacturing, which is a... There's a Japanese word called hansei, which stands for or which self-reflection for And the first two steps of this, the focus and reflect, are all about reflecting on the process, getting clear about what's happened, getting clear about what our role was in that and what our role wasn't.

[00:10:59] Melisa Buie: Was it [00:11:00] just bad luck that something failed, right? Was

[00:11:03] Melisa Buie: it out, completely out of our control, or did we do something wrong? Those are things

[00:11:10] Melisa Buie: we need to acknowledge. And then

[00:11:14] Melisa Buie: for

[00:11:15] Melisa Buie: deeper reflection on, like, how it's making us feel, like getting really clear about how that's impacting I-- for me, the best tool

[00:11:28] Melisa Buie: is,

[00:11:29] Melisa Buie: is writing. I will... And I love--

[00:11:32] Melisa Buie: There's,

[00:11:33] Melisa Buie: there's two authors that I love that have written books about how important writing is in reflection and getting in touch with

[00:11:42] Melisa Buie: what, 

[00:11:43] Melisa Buie: what's

[00:11:43] Melisa Buie: happened, and one of those is James Pennebaker, who wrote Expressive Writing, and then the other one that I love is Alison Jones, who wrote Exploratory Writing.

[00:11:54] Melisa Buie: And those two practices, those have completely changed the way I [00:12:00] approach my day. The way I approach life, is I need to spend time in reflection in order to really

[00:12:09] Melisa Buie: get perspective on what's happening. So it's such a valuable tool.

[00:12:17] Helen Wada: And, and I, I couldn't agree more, Melissa. I think, we talk about it in the programs that w- that we run, and it's often something that's newly to those that we work with, the power of reflection. keen to just take a moment to dive deeper 

[00:12:33] Helen Wada: into, 

[00:12:34] Helen Wada: so what is Because you and I know what reflection is.

[00:12:38] Helen Wada: We talk about journaling, we talk about writing. But imagine we've got... And in fact, I know we have some listeners 

[00:12:45] Helen Wada: listening 

[00:12:45] Helen Wada: to this show that are, are really new to And so with all your wisdom and experience, just take us through what a short reflective exercise would 

[00:12:56] Helen Wada: be that you 

[00:12:57] Helen Wada: find incredibly helpful [00:13:00] that they might try.

[00:13:03] Why Reflection Is Hard

[00:13:03] Melisa Buie: So reflection is an interesting it is interesting, so I'm, I am happy that you're focusing on it because

[00:13:11] Melisa Buie: for,

[00:13:11] Melisa Buie: for us as humans, most of us as professionals would... Studies have been done that we would rather spend, get electric shock than spend time with reflection.

[00:13:26] Melisa Buie: We just don't wanna spend that, we don't want to invest our time in really looking at what is really happening and what role we played in it. So that is, it's a really important tool for us to get comfortable And I think there's that

[00:13:50] Melisa Buie: reflection 

[00:13:50] Melisa Buie: is,

[00:13:51] Melisa Buie: is really difficult for us for...

[00:13:54] Melisa Buie: I, I,

[00:13:55] Melisa Buie: can think of three reasons that, that it is. First, we [00:14:00] live in a culture that really, at least in my cultures w- in operations, we value action over reflection.

[00:14:08] Melisa Buie: You 

[00:14:08] Melisa Buie: know, if 

[00:14:08] Melisa Buie: you're sitting there writing or thinking, it, you're not doing anything.

[00:14:14] Melisa Buie: So, we wanna,

[00:14:15] Melisa Buie: we wanna move faster, we wanna fail fast, we wanna move on. So sitting and thinking or sitting and writing feels like we're not being productive. So it feels like, when it feels like you're not doing anything, when everybody around you says,

[00:14:35] Melisa Buie: "Do 

[00:14:35] Melisa Buie: something, do 

[00:14:36] Melisa Buie: something," then,

[00:14:37] Melisa Buie: That makes it hard for us to invest in Another reason is that- 

[00:14:46] Melissa Buie: And I And I

[00:14:46] Melisa Buie: think

[00:14:47] Melisa Buie: this is,

[00:14:48] Melisa Buie: this is something that makes it really difficult, is that

[00:14:52] Melisa Buie: it,

[00:14:53] Melisa Buie: it's not comfortable. We're, We're-- when we talk about the funk of failure, [00:15:00] these are really there are

[00:15:02] Melisa Buie: heavy,

[00:15:03] Melisa Buie: heavy emotions that we're talking about. We're talking about shame.

[00:15:08] Melisa Buie: we're

[00:15:08] Melisa Buie: talking about fear.

[00:15:09] Melisa Buie: We're talking about regret.

[00:15:11] Melisa Buie: We're, like these are not things that we want to engage in, that we wanna think about, so our brains are literally wired for us to avoid discomfort. So our amygdala's screaming, "Danger, danger, get away. Get away from 

[00:15:29] Helen Wada: Ja. Ja we do is we distract ourselves, and there's,

[00:15:34] Melisa Buie: like

[00:15:34] Melisa Buie: a million distractions at our fingertips. We can scroll. We can binge-watch.

[00:15:40] Melisa Buie: We can overwork. But we'll do anything to avoid being alone with our thoughts.

[00:15:47] Helen Wada: Yep And

[00:15:50] Melisa Buie: finally,

[00:15:51] Melisa Buie: I,

[00:15:51] Melisa Buie: I,

[00:15:51] Melisa Buie: think another problem or another reason that we avoid reflection is that it requires us to really [00:16:00] dismantle our carefully constructed self-image. So we build a self-image that we display for the world, that we post on social media, and it looks good and,

[00:16:14] Melisa Buie: you 

[00:16:14] Melisa Buie: know,

[00:16:14] Melisa Buie: we're all perfect and we've got everything figured out,

[00:16:18] Melisa Buie: And,

[00:16:19] Melisa Buie: and that's not true.

[00:16:20] Melisa Buie: We've got to-- when we start-- the danger is when we start believing that about ourselves, and then we- 

[00:16:32] Melisa Buie: And then we wanna avoid reflecting because reflect, reflection actually threatens that fortress that we're trying to build. 

[00:16:43] Helen Wada: It, it can be quite exposing. 

[00:16:46] Journaling Prompts and Practice

[00:16:46] Helen Wada: I mean, just, just in terms of what we do. So when I, when I reflect,

[00:16:52] Helen Wada: I often write the question that I'm holding first at the top of the page, because that gets clear in my mind about what I'm asking myself.

[00:16:59] Helen Wada: [00:17:00] How well did that meeting go? What ... Literally just writing, what am I worried about? And it can be ...quite exposing, as you say, because actually, if we're true to ourselves and just let our pens flow, and, and this is a pen-to-paper exercise, 

[00:17:14] Helen Wada: not a

[00:17:15] Helen Wada: not

[00:17:16] Helen Wada: typing because again, the science proves the power of taking your thoughts from your head to your hand and the paper, which we're doing less often now.

[00:17:26] Helen Wada: I mean, my, my teenage children at school are s- typing most of their work up. And actually now when they get to exams, writing with a pen and paper ...is almost like a new skill.

[00:17:36] Helen Wada: There

[00:17:38] Helen Wada: There is 

[00:17:38] Helen Wada: power in the writing of reflection, and I think 

[00:17:42] Helen Wada: you 

[00:17:42] Helen Wada: talked earlier about feelings, that what happens when we put 

[00:17:47] Melisa Buie: We will 

[00:17:47] Helen Wada: pen to paper 

[00:17:49] Helen Wada: is sometimes those feelings emerge, and they can be quite exposing.

[00:17:54] Helen Wada: Now, one of the beauties reflection, you don't have to do anything with it. [00:18:00] It's not going to anybody. You're, you're doing personal ...reflection for So I often encourage people to not even write in a book, maybe here and on a sheet of paper, 

[00:18:12] Helen Wada: to,

[00:18:13] Helen Wada: just write what's going on for them, because it can be ripped up and thrown away, and I've done that in the 

[00:18:18] Helen Wada: past when I've been through challenging situations, and there's think- conversations maybe 

[00:18:22] Helen Wada: that I don't want to have with somebody, but I want to explore what I'm feeling.

[00:18:26] Helen Wada: And we'll come to why feelings matter in a moment. 

[00:18:29] Helen Wada: But, but then sort of highlighting those words in terms of what's important. So when you read that back, what are the words that you're holding, that you're seeing, that you're drawn to? And then maybe try and write a sentence those Because as one senior leader that I worked with a while ago now said to me, "The higher up in an organization that you go, the less you have others around you to learn [00:19:00] And so the power of self-reflection becomes critically important as you progress your leadership career

[00:19:11] Melisa Buie: Yes. And

[00:19:12] Melisa Buie: I,

[00:19:13] Melisa Buie: I think those are great practices, and I definitely do that. And I do a lot of the questions that the prompts and then writing as a result of those prompts. And 

[00:19:26] Melissa Buie: a, 

[00:19:26] Melisa Buie: a lot of times when I'm writing,

[00:19:27] Melisa Buie: like I

[00:19:27] Melisa Buie: don't worry about spelling things correctly because I'm a terrible speller. I get to just write it the way, and I get to be as sloppy as I want to.

[00:19:36] Melisa Buie: I don't have to use punctuation or make sure the grammar's correct, any of that. just get to dump what's in my head, what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking. I just get to dump it on the paper, and it's like it's, It's like I'm giving it away to the paper, and it gives me perspective on [00:20:00] whatever it, whatever that topic is that I'm thinking about.

[00:20:04] Helen Wada: Why, why 

[00:20:05] Feelings as Hidden Time Bombs

[00:20:05] Helen Wada: are those feelings important, Melissa? I mean, you and I both have worked in, in global organizations focus on productivity and outputs

[00:20:14] Helen Wada: You've mentioned feelings a lot. So tell me how powerful the acknowledgement of these feelings are in shaping 

[00:20:22] Helen Wada: what you want to achieve in your business.

[00:20:26] Melisa Buie: Well, I think 

[00:20:26] Melisa Buie: when,

[00:20:26] Melisa Buie: when we try to, when we try to acknowledge or ignore the feelings rather than acknowledge

[00:20:37] Melisa Buie: what's

[00:20:37] Melisa Buie: going on for us, then

[00:20:40] Melisa Buie: it,

[00:20:40] Melisa Buie: it's like we're- We're burying a we're burying a time bomb. And I'm...

[00:20:48] Melisa Buie: I'll,

[00:20:49] Melisa Buie: I'll share a personal example from...

[00:20:52] Melisa Buie: that I,

[00:20:52] Melisa Buie: that I share in the book,

[00:20:54] Melisa Buie: and it's,

[00:20:54] Melisa Buie: and it's interesting because it was one of the last stories that I wrote [00:21:00] for the book. And, and I think because it was so buried so at

[00:21:07] Melisa Buie: the time that I couldn't even, I couldn't even acknowledge it. My in...

[00:21:14] Melisa Buie: Right

[00:21:14] Grief and Avoidance

[00:21:14] Melisa Buie: when I first started to work as a professional, my father was killed in an automobile accident, and I rushed home and, spent time with my family to

[00:21:28] Melisa Buie: bury

[00:21:29] Melisa Buie: my father. And one of the... I remember on the, the first night that after we heard this, I was sitting with my mother. She was laying on the couch, and I was sitting there, and I was holding her hand, and she said just crying "You look so much like your father." And I... 

[00:21:50] Melisa Buie: For 

[00:21:50] Melisa Buie: me, that was, "Oh, my God, I'm hurting my mother." That's what I told myself. I... When she looks at me, it hurts [00:22:00] But I,

[00:22:01] Melisa Buie: Managed to get through the next couple of weeks helping as much as I could, and then I went back to work, and I lived 3,000 miles away, and I buried it. I buried all of it. About a year later, all of those emotions, I was a wreck because all I'd done

[00:22:24] Melisa Buie: for

[00:22:24] Melisa Buie: a year was avoid my family as much as possible, avoid hard conversations, avoid talking about my father, avoid missing him,

[00:22:35] Melisa Buie: and

[00:22:35] Melisa Buie: I just worked.

[00:22:37] Melisa Buie: I worked. And I was a wreck. So

[00:22:41] Melisa Buie: I,

[00:22:41] Melisa Buie: I failed my family, I failed my...

[00:22:46] Melisa Buie: The realization of all of that was so intense and so powerful that I went into therapy and started, and finally started dealing with it, and I was able to, thank goodness, [00:23:00] start being there for my family a little bit later. But

[00:23:03] Melisa Buie: that's

[00:23:04] Bringing Humanity to Work

[00:23:04] Melisa Buie: what happens when we try to bury, especially these big moments in our life. We have to bring our humanity. We can't just check it at the door. We've gotta bring our humanity. It's gonna come in whether we like it or not.

[00:23:21] Melisa Buie: So

[00:23:22] Melisa Buie: we might as well acknowledge it and

[00:23:26] Melisa Buie: bring

[00:23:27] Melisa Buie: our full selves, bring

[00:23:29] Melisa Buie: who

[00:23:29] Melisa Buie: we are to the office.

[00:23:34] Melisa Buie: Yeah I, think, what a, what a sad but, wonderful story in terms of how that's impacted you and your I think the older that we get, the more we realize that, that life itself is, is a journey. I mean, whether, whether anybody has children, or whether you've got parents, elderly parents, or [00:24:00] friends that have, struggled with health or anything.

[00:24:02] Helen Wada: I think, I hit 50 last year, a grand old age. But actually, we talked about reflection. Reflecting back, there are so many times in people's lives where they need to a- just acknowledge what's going on. That doesn't mean they will not focus on their roles or what they're doing at work or... But ultimately, and this is where the human advantage started, we are a collection of human beings.

[00:24:30] Helen Wada: We're, we're not a collection robots. And whilst AI is going to augment the the human race is not going anywhere anytime soon. And so, actually, organizations to thrive, to be sustainably we need to acknowledge 

[00:24:54] Helen Wada: and they have things going on in their lives.

[00:24:56] Helen Wada: And, and we might learn from those and be [00:25:00] motivated in ways that we might not have been otherwise. Um, but I think the real lesson in terms of that reflection, the feelings, the importance of those at work to then say, "Well, well, so what, what can we do about it?" And I think if we, if we dial up the energy and, and think about, okay, so, so what can we do?

[00:25:21] Fear of Failure Question

[00:25:21] Helen Wada: And coming back to that fear of failure, because 

[00:25:25] Helen Wada: I think sometimes we, we hesitate ourselves for fear of moving for fear of doing And so what I'm curious about is 

[00:25:37] Helen Wada: learn- 

[00:25:37] Helen Wada: learning from you and your what are the things that we 

[00:25:41] Helen Wada: can do, 

[00:25:41] Helen Wada: that the listeners can 

[00:25:42] Helen Wada: do 

[00:25:43] Helen Wada: to step out of that fear of and actually encourage themselves 

[00:25:49] Helen Wada: to, to just move 

[00:25:50] Helen Wada: forward?

[00:25:50] Helen Wada: What would 

[00:25:50] Helen Wada: be the 

[00:25:51] Helen Wada: sort of 

[00:25:51] Helen Wada: the 

[00:25:51] Helen Wada: top three things 

[00:25:53] Practice Reflection and Experiments

[00:25:53] Melisa Buie: So the thing is we're, it's practice. So practicing, start [00:26:00] practicing now because it's never, like the feelings about, the feelings around failure, the feelings that we have, they're not gonna go away.

[00:26:11] Melisa Buie: Now, they may get easier to deal with and we may be able to deal with them faster the more we practice, but

[00:26:19] Melisa Buie: it's not,

[00:26:20] Melisa Buie: it's not gonna be ever, it's, it may get easier, but it's not gonna get easy to deal with when we screw up. It just, like it's not. But-

[00:26:31] Melisa Buie: So,

[00:26:31] Melisa Buie: but the more spending time in reflection, and,

[00:26:39] Melisa Buie: you 

[00:26:39] Melisa Buie: know, we 

[00:26:40] Melisa Buie: just think about it.

[00:26:41] Melisa Buie: It's...

[00:26:42] Melisa Buie: We,

[00:26:42] Melisa Buie: we are very... When we're

[00:26:44] Melisa Buie: deliberate

[00:26:46] Melisa Buie: and focused on, okay, that didn't work. What can I do next? Okay, let me try that. Oh, that didn't work.

[00:26:56] Melisa Buie: Let

[00:26:56] Melisa Buie: me try that. So bringing that rather [00:27:00] than engage in, oh, I screwed up or,

[00:27:03] Melisa Buie: Like taking it on yourself, it's

[00:27:05] Melisa Buie: like, "Oh,

[00:27:06] Melisa Buie: that didn't work, so let me try something else.

[00:27:08] Melisa Buie: And

[00:27:10] Melisa Buie: the more we try small things.

[00:27:12] Melisa Buie: Okay,

[00:27:13] Melisa Buie: well, I'm

[00:27:13] Melisa Buie: gonna try a small experiment because trying a big gigantic thing where I blew my whole budget, that is,

[00:27:22] Melisa Buie: you 

[00:27:22] Melisa Buie: know, that's 

[00:27:23] Melisa Buie: gonna be really dangerous if I fail there. But if I try this small thing and that doesn't work,

[00:27:30] Melisa Buie: well, I'll

[00:27:31] Melisa Buie: know within 24 hours, and I can adjust, and I can try something else,

[00:27:36] Melisa Buie: and

[00:27:36] Melisa Buie: then I can try something else. But it's bringing that curiosity and that, and really engaging with it.

[00:27:45] Melisa Buie: Part of the problem with our, the feelings around failure and

[00:27:51] Melisa Buie: not,

[00:27:52] Melisa Buie: not embracing them, not spending time in reflection, is that we're just reacting. We're not using [00:28:00] these amazing human, the, our amazing humanness, which allows us like, proactive.

[00:28:07] Melisa Buie: It allows us to choose how we behave and how we act, and we can't do that if we're constantly in reacting When I was,

[00:28:18] Melisa Buie: when I was working,

[00:28:21] Melisa Buie: you 

[00:28:21] Melisa Buie: know, 17-hour 

[00:28:22] Melisa Buie: days because I was trying to avoid thinking about my father or thinking about my that was reacting. That was... I wasn't being proactive. I wasn't even being human.

[00:28:33] Melisa Buie: I was a robot. That's not what a company wants.

[00:28:38] Melisa Buie: They're,

[00:28:38] Melisa Buie: they hired a human. And so that's what we need to bring

[00:28:45] Melisa Buie: to

[00:28:46] Melisa Buie: the, to our companies, to our lives, is that spend time in reflection, learn, practice, experiment, be curious, and then try it again.[00:29:00]

[00:29:01] Helen Wada: Interesting. 

[00:29:02] Entrepreneurial Mindset at Work

[00:29:06] Helen Wada: I, I'm, I'm reflecting as we're having this conversation, Melissa, because actually, The Human Advantage is about four years old now, and one of the things that I have loved about the freedom of running my own is, is I just get to try things. I mean, this podcast, I think we're on about episode...

[00:29:20] Helen Wada: This may well be episode 70, Melissa, I'm not 

[00:29:23] Helen Wada: sure. 

[00:29:24] Helen Wada: This was something that I tried 18 months, almost two years ago. Somebody said, "Well, why don't you give a podcast know, I, I could have sat there and thought, "Well, it might fail, it might not work. I've never done this before." All of which were But I just thought, "You know what? Let's dive in and see what happens." Now, as an entrepreneur, 

[00:29:44] Helen Wada: it 

[00:29:44] Helen Wada: is often easier to do that. I think some of, some of the times in organizations we get a bit stuck with rules and systems. Somebody once said to me, "Do you know what?

[00:29:59] Helen Wada: Ask for[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Helen Wada: for forfor- ask for forgiveness, 

[00:30:02] Helen Wada: not for 

[00:30:04] Helen Wada: Now, 

[00:30:05] Helen Wada: now that's within, what you decide to do, but actually 

[00:30:09] Helen Wada: if 

[00:30:10] Helen Wada: never try, you never know. ...if you're leading within a, a, a large organization, 

[00:30:19] Helen Wada: what 

[00:30:19] Helen Wada: your... what is your advice to them to sort of free up this

[00:30:24] Helen Wada: entrepreneurialism

[00:30:26] Helen Wada: within a business? Because you and I have freedom and flexibility, but 

[00:30:31] Helen Wada: it's, 

[00:30:31] Helen Wada: it can be harder.

[00:30:32] Helen Wada: What do you say to those leaders that you work 

[00:30:35] Psychological Safety and Premortems

[00:30:35] Melisa Buie: there's a couple of things. So one is we've gotta make it safe to, we've gotta make it safe to make mistakes and to fail. And and the smaller, the more we can talk about bounded experiments and small experiments

[00:30:52] Melisa Buie: and,

[00:30:53] Melisa Buie: and 

[00:30:53] Melisa Buie: be curious, the better. So having a safe-to-fail environment, which the... [00:31:00] I think the word that's used a lot now is a psychologically safe environment. So 

[00:31:07] Melisa Buie: that's 

[00:31:07] Melisa Buie: the environment or that's the culture you wanna bring this And then have everything be a learning experience. Spend time in reflection and- This can be something like, oh,

[00:31:24] Melisa Buie: well, one

[00:31:24] Melisa Buie: day a quarter we go offsite and we look at how we're doing against our MBOs, so we reflect on all of that.

[00:31:32] Melisa Buie: What have we accomplished? What are we doing? And those kinds of activities, we go to the engineering meeting and spend time talking about, "Oh, here's the experiments we've run. Let's talk about what worked and what didn't work in those experiments." That's a really easy way to do it because that's something we're used to. And then we get people in that mindset of, "Oh, well, [00:32:00] hey, let's try that in human resources. Let's try that in finance. Let's try that,

[00:32:05] Melisa Buie: In other areas." And we wanna bring that

[00:32:10] Melisa Buie: type 

[00:32:11] Melisa Buie: of,

[00:32:12] Melisa Buie: that type of culture where it's safe to experiment, and if an experiment doesn't work, we're gonna try something else. And the more we do that, the more we practice that type of activity, the better. Another tool that I absolutely love is a pre-mortem, and

[00:32:34] Melisa Buie: I,

[00:32:34] Melisa Buie: I love this because you...

[00:32:37] Melisa Buie: it,

[00:32:38] Melisa Buie: it allows you to kind of role play a little bit and jump in before you start something big.

[00:32:45] Melisa Buie: "Well,

[00:32:45] Melisa Buie: hey, let's spend some time and think about what happened, what happens if we fail at and before you even start, and how could it go wrong?

[00:32:58] Melisa Buie: What might happen? [00:33:00] And then, "Oh, wow, okay, so let's do everything we can to avoid all of those line items-

[00:33:09] Helen Wada: Yeah

[00:33:10] Melisa Buie: just identified that could cause the... And a lot of times you can identify things like, oh,

[00:33:17] Melisa Buie: well,

[00:33:17] Melisa Buie: what if we have communication breakdown between production and engineering, or between production and Okay, how do we make sure that we're gonna have communication between those two organizations?

[00:33:32] Melisa Buie: It's

[00:33:33] Melisa Buie: a beautiful tool 

[00:33:35] Helen Wada: It's, it's yeah, and it's the same, it's the same when we're thinking about sales and growing your business, Melissa. It's, it's exactly the same, because I think sometimes we often put big blockers in our own And so when you, when you really inquire about what 

[00:33:52] Helen Wada: they actually

[00:33:55] Helen Wada: then actually you think they're insurmountable, but actually they're not.

[00:33:58] Helen Wada: It just [00:34:00] goes to the what do we need to 

[00:34:01] Helen Wada: ask, 

[00:34:02] Helen Wada: what are the conversations we need to have, what are we... what is the missing information? And, and then if you're doing it afterwards, what did we learn? 

[00:34:09] Helen Wada: For me, 

[00:34:11] Helen Wada: that's 

[00:34:13] Coaching to Reduce Pressure

[00:34:13] Helen Wada: You talk about psychological but for me, that really warms to, to the coaching approach.

[00:34:19] Helen Wada: It's not about using these coaching skills conversations with your clients or with other people in the organization, it's about those sales leaders having coaching skills 

[00:34:31] Melisa Buie: Well, 

[00:34:31] Helen Wada: able to lead and coach others. And I think too often what we're used to seeing your target is half a million dollars or a million dollars or a million pound, whatever it may be, 

[00:34:40] Helen Wada: and it's,

[00:34:42] Helen Wada: how it- 

[00:34:44] Helen Wada: it's that power, it's where 

[00:34:45] Helen Wada: we got to. Why, why haven't What's happening? Why are you there? And so what happens is fear of failure increases, 

[00:34:58] Helen Wada: and actually 

[00:34:58] Helen Wada: the performance [00:35:00] reduces because we've got 

[00:35:02] Helen Wada: this fear of failure. But by, 

[00:35:05] Helen Wada: by flipping it on its head, by taking a 

[00:35:10] Helen Wada: for encouraging reflection, 

[00:35:12] Helen Wada: approach to these conversations, through encouraging reflection, not penalizing when things go wrong or they don't work out, ...but using them as a learning 

[00:35:17] Helen Wada: experience, 

[00:35:19] Helen Wada: for me, 

[00:35:20] Helen Wada: that's when you can start to that's when, like the England-France football, going back to where we were at the beginning of the conversation, that's when people fly, 

[00:35:30] Helen Wada: and that's 

[00:35:31] Helen Wada: when people

[00:35:32] Helen Wada: And

[00:35:33] Helen Wada: flourish. And ultimately, that's what I want for my career, and the legacy that I will leave give other 50 the to say, 

[00:35:42] Helen Wada: "You have to take it in your own destiny.

[00:35:44] Helen Wada: You have to have personal accountability. Somebody's not 

[00:35:47] Helen Wada: gonna do it for you.

[00:35:49] Helen Wada: However, there are tools and techniques 

[00:35:50] Helen Wada: there, are tools and techniques out

[00:35:53] Helen Wada: give it a go, right? 

[00:35:54] Helen Wada: and 

[00:35:54] Helen Wada: give it a go. give it a go and 

[00:35:56] Helen Wada: see what happens." 

[00:35:57] Helen Wada: so, so I've got one ask. I'm gonna come to [00:36:00] you in a moment, Melissa, but for all those people listening to this 

[00:36:05] Helen Wada: give 

[00:36:05] Helen Wada: a go.

[00:36:06] Helen Wada: What have you had in your mind that you want to try and that you've held off for So 

[00:36:14] Helen Wada: just go and try something new and see what happens. Reflect on it. What did you learn? ...I've made it hard for you, Melissa, 'cause I've just shared that, and now I'm gonna come to you. 

[00:36:23] Top Tip and Reflection Question

[00:36:27] Helen Wada: I'm gonna ask you, I always love to get our guests before we leave to give us one top- And then one question for reflection

[00:36:31] Melisa Buie: one top, one top tip

[00:36:34] Melisa Buie: is, is

[00:36:35] Melisa Buie: just jump in and start practicing. Practice reflection, practice experimentation, practice being curious. 

[00:36:43] Melisa Buie: And then I... Okay, so my question

[00:36:48] Melisa Buie: would so if you're going to if, if you're gonna try something I would say be curious and maybe even explore.

[00:36:59] Melisa Buie: [00:37:00] Okay,

[00:37:00] Melisa Buie: well, what

[00:37:00] Melisa Buie: if this doesn't work? What if this... I'm gonna try XYZ, and so the question then to explore is,

[00:37:09] Melisa Buie: well,

[00:37:10] Melisa Buie: what if it doesn't work? Like, how might I feel? Or

[00:37:14] Melisa Buie: what

[00:37:14] Melisa Buie: might the customer say? Or what might my,

[00:37:17] Melisa Buie: My employees say if this doesn't work out? And, and then

[00:37:22] Melisa Buie: explore that a little bit so that then you could ask okay, so how might I 

[00:37:30] Melisa Buie: adjust 

[00:37:32] Melisa Buie: if that's what might happen? And

[00:37:36] Melisa Buie: it,

[00:37:36] Melisa Buie: it's a really great exercise, especially if you have a difficult conversation or a new project that you're introducing. It's a really great way to get people to get yourself

[00:37:49] Melisa Buie: kind 

[00:37:49] Melisa Buie: of in 

[00:37:49] Melisa Buie: the right head space engage in a new way.

[00:37:56] Helen Wada: I love it. And, and mitigate those things that we make, like [00:38:00] we imagine as elephants, but actually they might be little 

[00:38:02] Helen Wada: mice

[00:38:03] Melisa Buie: Yes. Yes

[00:38:06] Closing and Farewell

[00:38:06] Helen Wada: Melissa, it's been absolutely wonderful 

[00:38:08] Helen Wada: to have you on the show, for you to share your wisdom with the Humanise I wish you well with the new project, and I'm going to say I hope you fail 

[00:38:18] Helen Wada: lots 

[00:38:18] Helen Wada: and learn loads.

[00:38:20] Helen Wada: And, 

[00:38:20] Melisa Buie: Me too, because that means I'm trying a lot of 

[00:38:23] Melissa Buie: things 

[00:38:24] Helen Wada: things you're trying and 

[00:38:25]

[00:39:10] ​