Ep64: Leading Under Pressure Without Losing Your Humanity with Kate Adams

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What happens when leaders are expected to deliver commercial results while navigating increasing scrutiny, complexity, and competing expectations? In this episode of Human Wise, Helen Wada is joined by leadership advisor, coach, and author Kate Adams to explore how leaders can remain human when the pressure is relentless.

Drawing on two decades of experience across business, technology, innovation, and the social sector, Kate shares insights from her book Accountability Under Fire. Together, Helen and Kate discuss why leadership today is no longer about having all the answers. Instead, it requires curiosity, courage, and the ability to hold space for different perspectives while making difficult decisions.

This is a thoughtful conversation for leaders seeking to balance performance, accountability, and humanity in an increasingly complex world. 

Topics Discussed

• What it means to be human at work under pressure
• Why leadership complexity is increasing
• The relationship between accountability and scrutiny
• How curiosity and listening improve decision-making
• Leading yourself before leading others
• Understanding stakeholders and systems thinking
• Balancing commercial performance with societal impact
• Why awareness creates better leadership
• The importance of holding different perspectives
• Creating space between stimulus and response

View extended shownotes here

Further links to follow:

Read HUMAN-WISE: How to lead from within and sell with confidence

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Transcript

 Ep64: Leading Under Pressure Without Losing Your Humanity with Kate Adams

[00:00:00]

[00:00:29] Welcome and Guest Intro

[00:00:29] Helen Wada: Welcome to another episode of HumanWise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Kate Adams with me this afternoon. Kate joining us all the way from Washington, D.C., certainly at the moment. Another fellow author, but actually brilliant human being that I could not wait to have a conversation with on this podcast because I know it's gonna be enriching and very topical in the world today.

[00:00:56] Helen Wada: Kate Adams is a leadership advisor, coach, and board [00:01:00] level social impact leader helping organizations navigate the increasing demands of modern leadership while maintaining high performance. Her work at the intersection of leadership, strategy, and culture shaped by two decades of experience across business technology, media innovation, and the nonprofit sector, including senior roles at Comic Relief, Nesta, Tech Nation, Forward Institute in the UK, and Conscious Capitalism in the US.

[00:01:28] Helen Wada: She's also a non-executive director and social impact chair at ParalympicsGB, and author of Accountability Under Fire, which we're gonna talk about shortly. Her work focuses on how leaders can deliver strong performance whilst acting as responsible stewards of their organizations and wider impact. She currently lives in Washington, D.C.,

[00:01:49] Helen Wada: but soon returning to the UK after a three-year American adventure with her diplomat husband and children. Welcome to the show, Kate

[00:01:59] Kate Adams: Hi, thanks for [00:02:00] having me, Helen

[00:02:01] Helen Wada: I've got goosebumps like going through your bio. I feel that I've got to know you as a human 

[00:02:07] Helen Wada: being so much over the last, however many months it is. But, but, reading your bio there, the experience that you've brought to Accountability Under Flire- Fire. We're talking about being human.

[00:02:19] Kate’s People First Journey

[00:02:19] Helen Wada: Who, who is Kate Adams the person? You talk a bit about your diplomat husband and your children. Tell us a little bit more about you before we dive into the detail of the book

[00:02:27] Kate Adams: Thanks. Gosh how long have you got, Helen? Yeah. Yeah, it- it's really interesting actually. For me, always since I I guess since I left school and thought, "What am I gonna do in the big, wide world?" For me, it is not money that makes the world go round, it's people that make the world go round. So when I started in, in my working career, I wanted to work in the people side of business and not necessarily the money side.

[00:02:53] Kate Adams: So I actually started in terrible phrase now, but at the time, I think it's still ... Oh, it does still get called this, human capital. [00:03:00] Yeah.

[00:03:00] Helen Wada: Like this, yeah, yeah

[00:03:01] Kate Adams: As a consultant, which is basically understanding how if people are your biggest asset and also your biggest liability on the balance sheet, what does that mean? But it's really interesting how I think I've always felt it's We all turn up to work to yes, we need to put food on the table, shirts on our backs but life is much more than, than just that work, and I'm being so curious about, businesses were trying to work out how they It sound- it's m- it's a bit of a cruel world, but also an in- interesting word, manipulate their workforce

[00:03:32] Kate Adams: to perform really well. And I was super curious about just the society side of how things work. So not just how business works with people, but how, how people work to make a fu- high-functioning society. So I was then lucky enough to switch my career into very different spaces, like Comic Relief, which was all about creating a just world free from poverty. And then I was fascinated by the interplay between technology and people. So went over to Nesta, where we started thinking about, [00:04:00] well, my phrase is always, "Just because we can doesn't mean we should."

[00:04:03] Kate Adams: So when you think about technology, why would we design something that means people suffer or struggle or struggle to get a job, people out of jobs? Why don't we design things that help people have a four-day week and go and live some more? Why don't we design

[00:04:18] Helen Wada: Absolutely

[00:04:18] Kate Adams: assistive technology for those with disabilities and all things like that? So there's always been this theme of people, and then I got a bit obsessed with, well, I think it's leaders that guide and steer this direction, so it's leaders that I wanna work with.

[00:04:31] Kate Adams: So I really, that sense of people has threaded all the way through, I think that, that for me, and understanding so curious about people, what makes them tick, and yeah. So definitely I was always gonna go more the people side than the accounting side, put it that way.

[00:04:48] Helen Wada: That's probably what brought us together, 

[00:04:50] Helen Wada: is that focus on people, the focus on human. Because when, when I set up this podcast, but, before I, I put my book out [00:05:00] there it was really that how can we blend commerciality with humanity? Because I think, like you, I recognize that the world needs to go around.

[00:05:10] Helen Wada: Money is part of that, and whether it's for profit, whether it's not for profit. But fundamentally, the question has to become who are we doing it for? What, what are the implications on society? And where is this all leading us? And I think in the time that we've known each other, AI has accelerated the conversation, and some of these bigger questions are, are really, really important and, and even more so important at, at board level with those leaders that are steering the ships.

[00:05:46] Helen Wada: Because for me it's a question of, well, why are we doing all this? What are we doing? Are we, are we racing to robots, or are, are we actually looking to create businesses and organizations that are looking after society and people as [00:06:00] a whole? And so I think this is such a, a timely conversation and, and actually a timely book for you to put into the world Accountability Under Fire.

[00:06:11] Helen Wada: We're gonna get to that in a moment, but I do like to start the podcast with a question about being human. 

[00:06:16] Being Human Under Pressure

[00:06:16] Helen Wada: What does being human at work mean to you?

[00:06:20] Kate Adams: I think it's, it's a good question. It means so many things, but I think to, to pull out a headline, or I think the main, the main area I've been thinking about recently is what it means when you're really under pressure.

[00:06:31] Helen Wada: Yeah

[00:06:32] Kate Adams: Because that's when we sometimes show our worst side or trickiest side, and yet actually the workplace for very senior leaders has become such a complex and challenging place to be.

[00:06:44] Kate Adams: So I think what does it mean to be human at work when you're under pressure? I think we, we get that fight, flight, fright mode, don't we? And I know that when I'm under pressure, I... Sometimes I perform really well because I'm super clear. I'm just like, it's like, okay, it's really clear that [00:07:00] this is, you know, let's focus on, on speed and just, I don't know, and adrenaline kicks in, and it goes really well. Other times when I'm under pressure the worst sides of me dial up And actually, I think we, we see that increasingly as under in, under more scrutiny, leaders become, they how do you... When you want clarity, you're saying, "Where, what's the answer? Someone give me the answer. Give me the answer." I'm trying to find, find the data point to, to make a good judgment. And actually, you have to stay curious when, when there is no clarity because you're not quite sure where it's coming from. But can you stay in that state a little bit longer until maybe something presents itself to you? I think do we listen so well when we're in that pressured moment? I suspect, I suspect we don't always, and sometimes we can't because it- it's a quick decision, and you haven't got time for consultation.

[00:07:48] Kate Adams: But actually, even when we want to be defending ourselves, it's can we just hold that space a little bit more to, to listen? I think that's the more human response is don't, don't, don't go into defense, go into, [00:08:00] curiosity listening mode. Just even if it's just for an hour, like can you buy that, that time? And I think the other thing for me is around courage. Increasingly when under pressure, oh, it's so difficult to say, well, do I, do I make the decision that I think is gonna have the least I don't know, friction? What, what am I gonna do with this decision? It's having the courage when there are no answers to say, "I'm, I'm, I'm gonna speak up on that, and I'm going to be prepared to try and answer the scrutiny and questions that, that follow." because I, I don't think leadership is about eliminating complexity anymore. That ship's sailed I think it's much more about how you help people navigate it together

[00:08:41] Helen Wada: And, and I, I think that's fascinating because it's, there's so many themes that are similar to, to where I come at things from a coaching perspective. Because when you talk about curiosity, when you talk about holding space, when you talk about listening, when you talk about having the courage to hold who [00:09:00] you are in front of others, actually, those are all effectively coaching skills that are not easy to master.

[00:09:09] Helen Wada: I mean, I've been a coach for 10, 12 years, and I'm still working. If you ask my teenage kids, " Mom, you're not listening to a shit. You teach,

[00:09:17] Kate Adams: other.

[00:09:17] Kate Adams: Oh, I didn't say, you go to work. You didn't stay at home. I mean, a totally different set of rules

[00:09:23] Helen Wada: Oh, but I thought that's what your book says. You're not listening to me. But, yeah, but I ju- joking aside, I think it's one of the most underrated and undervalued leadership skills there is, and we're gonna come t- come on to talk about what you talk about in the book, about leading others, leading yourself.

[00:09:41] Why Write Accountability Under Fire

[00:09:41] Helen Wada: But, but before we go there, I just want us to go back to the origin story of Accountability Under Fire, and what got you to the book, to the title, and, I, I... What's fascinating about what you talk about is that levels of accountability, and [00:10:00] actually, there's not one size fits all in this crazy world that we're operating in.

[00:10:03] Helen Wada: So just, just love to learn a little bit more about that

[00:10:07] Kate Adams: Yeah, yeah. Sure. So I mean, I wanted to write the book because having straddled... My career straddled the commercial world and then the very sort of societal-lensed world, and I bridge the... I believe it's really important to be high performing when it comes to numbers, and it's also really h- important to be high performing when it comes to people.

[00:10:25] Kate Adams: And, and I kind of bridge those because I've been in, in both those worlds at different times. And I wanted to write the book because increasingly, the gap between those two things is collapsing in, in the workplace, and leadership is becoming so challenging because leaders are navigating a very different environment where they're under intense scrutiny.

[00:10:46] Kate Adams: The workforce, the customer base are all scrutinizing and looking at leaders all the time now, thinking they have a legitimate stake in the way that the organization almost serves them or [00:11:00] impacts them. And I've observed that from being in my own roles and also through my network talking to me about the challenges they're facing, and I thought, I don't see anything that's helping the very senior leaders. My fear being, by the way, if they're not helped, we will lose really good senior leaders and CEOs, and then what are we left with? And I think a lot of people say to me, "Oh, is that where politics has gone?" It's like, well, if- what are we gonna be left with? So in the business world, which is so influential on society, how do we support these CEOs that are feeling there's a gap?

[00:11:32] Kate Adams: And, and I, I was curious, 'cause when you look at it exec education tends to cover a lot on how you run a business for its economic force that it is, and we don't have much, I think, in exec education on how to run business as a societal force, and it's increasingly recognized as one. And leaders, whether they like it or not, or even recognize it or not, are now judged as such, as, as societal leaders, too. [00:12:00] So I, I saw all of that and I thought, you know what, I really wanna arrange my thoughts and put it down into a book. I wanted to, first of all, help call out the situation and where I, I think we now are. I've had a lot of CEOs say to me, "Oh, thank you for just calling out this thing. I totally feel this, and it's not a big discussion that's being had but it's a huge pressure, I feel." I think the other thing I really wanted to do was try and, one of my mentors when I was writing, actually, is a, is a great piece of advice, and he said to me, "Be curious about this topic. Don't be don't think you've got the answers to it. 

[00:12:32] The Accountability Ladder Explained

[00:12:32] Kate Adams: Be curious and unpack it." And so I built this accountability ladder, which basically, it's a framework for five different types of ways organizations approach accountability, and it's not meant to be a who's right and who's wrong.

[00:12:47] Kate Adams: It's meant to be an objective categorization to help people make sense of, of this, and what's easy and hard about it, when organizations might come to it or not. So this accountability ladder has, At the [00:13:00] bottom, it's those organizations that are just very reactive, and maybe they're small organizations.

[00:13:04] Kate Adams: Maybe they're not very public-facing. They don't have a big team or can't afford a big team to be thinking about, corporate affairs, government affairs, all these different types of roles. They might not even be able to afford a compliance team. And so normally, those organizations ... Or they just come to the table late, by the way.

[00:13:20] Kate Adams: But those organizations you will see being really reactive, and there's case studies in the book, organizations like Boohoo who had factories in their supply chain that had people working for under the minimum wage and in terrible conditions around COVID. And I think Boohoo at the time felt, oh, that's not that's not us.

[00:13:38] Kate Adams: That's one of our suppliers. And that is not how the world saw it, and it cost

[00:13:42] Kate Adams: Boohoo a lot of money cost them a lot of their reputation, and it, it was never the same since. So you've got these very reactive. Then you've got organizations that are compliance focused. They think the accountability floor has been set for them by regulation and compliance, and so they think, well, if, if we[00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Kate Adams: Surely if we comply with everything that's required of us, that's us being accountability, 'cause that's the kind of rule making set

[00:14:06] Kate Adams: of COVID. I would argue that's not necessarily accountability. That's just compliance. And some organizations spend a lot on that, and I know having lived in the US now for the last few years, I think they sometimes think Europe's a bit bonkers that we put all this cost on businesses to be compliant and all this extra regulation, supporting teams, and, and it's, it's really interesting. Then you get those organizations that are really vigilant in the sense that they're scanning all the time for what's society expecting of them and how do they message that. So that might be a broadcast like a Netflix or a, a Channel 4 or someone. Then the fourth rung is where we start to see some of those poster children.

[00:14:42] Kate Adams: So you might see an IKEA, for instance, who have said, "Look, we recognize that we are having a big impact on the world." So IKEA, I think at one stage, was using 1% of all the wood in the world

[00:14:55] Kate Adams: to make furniture.

[00:14:57] Kate Adams: And they think, "Gosh, if we're doing that, that's a huge amount for one [00:15:00] company to be having an impact on, on, on forest supplies. So we are going to make sure that we're thinking about circularity and sustainability because, yes, we, we are ... The, the way we behave does impact those people that live in the forests or, or just the amount of, of wood circling and, and all sorts." So IKEA would be a proactive pioneer, for instance. Th- there's various organizations that are in that space where they've made it really clear that they've, they can see what their accountability is beyond their organization, and they want to ensure that they recognize that and navigate that responsibly. And in the very top of the ladder, it's really interesting because, The big poster child would be someone like a Patagonia, for instance. But there's many organizations there where their responsibility, accountability, and those two There are different meanings to those two words, but this sense that it's entirely baked into their business strategy that they are accountable.

[00:15:54] Kate Adams: So Patagonia profit model is now, well, they're owned, their sha- biggest shareholder is the environment. They've put an

[00:15:59] Kate Adams: entirely new [00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Helen Wada: It's a fascinating story. I, I read, I read the book relatively recently actually. And, and if, if nobody's looked at the Patagonia story, it's, it's fascinating in terms of what they were holding onto in terms of the values for the business and where it ultimately went to. And there was some tragedy along the way with business partners and so forth.

[00:16:20] Helen Wada: But it brought into sharp focus the importance of the values 

[00:16:24] Purpose Values and Scaling

[00:16:24] Kate Adams: I think what's really important for anyone listening and aspiring, a lot of people think Patagonia-type model is out, out of their reach and doesn't apply to them, and I, and I, I empathize with that, too. So ev- everyday CEOs, like, how do I, how do I get my company to that? Do, do I want to get my company to that? So I think what I was trying to do in The Ladder is say actually there's a lot of companies that were up that rung in the ladder who, who then can't scale for growth. So depending on your capital model as an organization, where your capital comes from it's potentially you, you can't... I mean, Patagonia's an optimum size, right? You look at someone [00:17:00] like Etsy when they IPO'd, that whole DNA receded for them. Seventh Generation, which is sort of household detergents and things, couldn't scale without going to a, I think, I think theirs was Procter & Gamble. We look at TOMS shoes, we look at Al... Allbirds shoes, and you look at these organizations that maybe they're going to stop at an optimum size, but when the capital markets come to play, they're like, "We can't scale it enough and keep that, that DNA in place."

[00:17:27] Kate Adams: So th- that feels like there's a bit of a, a crossroads there. N- it's not to say you can't be really profitable and purposeful. It, maybe it's, maybe the data is saying, and let's see how it pans out over time, there's an optimum size or optimal size for you. So th- and there's reasons why some companies can get there and some can't, and I think the other four big interplays I have I've come across are the value set of the leader.

[00:17:50] Kate Adams: So you referenced, Patagonia and, and clearly the values in that organization and through that leadership and s- specifically the founder. Equally your the model of ownership, so what [00:18:00] capital you've got. Are you, are you a privately owned company who can make your own choices and choose your kind of targets and profitability levels, or are you private equity backed?

[00:18:09] Kate Adams: Or are you, investor and shareholder driven? Are you publicly listed? That will affect wh- what you can do and where you're able to sit on the ladder. The other thing is how public facing you are. If your brand is hidden, this accountability under fire, I think, is a much more internal piece rather than you're not being held to account from society as much.

[00:18:29] Kate Adams: It's quite an interesting model. I think it's, it's the public facing nature of the brand that brings the, the scrutiny with it

[00:18:36] Helen Wada: And, and that's why having, these different options, these different choices, there is no one-size-fits-all. It's about appreciating where you are at and what you are trying to align to. It's very much like sort of purpose that, that I talk about in terms of, we've had the conversations years ago about what's your purpose, how do you align your purpose to broader [00:19:00] society and the agenda of the world?

[00:19:01] Helen Wada: And, and actually for some people that's too big. 

[00:19:05] Helen Wada: For some people that is just too much. And so when we're coaching, when we're working with leaders, it's about how to break it down, because you might not be in an organization that you can have th- this golden thread or line of sight through to that making a difference, yes, you may be able to, but, but you might not. But actually there are other ways of doing it. So is it spending your time with some not-for-profit sector, or is it about the, the type of people that you bring into your organization, the type of people that you recruit, what your policies are from that perspective, down to what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.

[00:19:42] Helen Wada: Actually you can have different levels of purpose, and I think that very much links with what you talk about having different levels of accountability, that bringing you back to, taking a pause, stopping and listening and, and time to think. Where are we actually [00:20:00] going with all of this?

[00:20:01] Helen Wada: Because you can be caught up with- 

[00:20:04] Helen Wada: Yeah ... 

[00:20:05] Helen Wada: the crossfire, dare I say it, more ways than one with, with what people are, are shouting or shooting at you. But ultimately as a senior leader, you need to be the one to hold and lead yourself. We'll, we'll come onto that in a moment. But lead yourself and, and put your head about the, above the parapet like you talked about, and say, "For us, where we're at right now, this is the direction of travel and this is how we're gonna all get involved."

[00:20:31] Kate Adams: Yeah. 

[00:20:31] The Personal Cost of Leadership

[00:20:33] Kate Adams: I, a- and it's totally true. I, I, I think one of the, my biggest perspectives is I, I think we now expect too much from leaders And some people say, "Well, they get paid so much. Isn't that, isn't that okay? Isn't that what we pay them for?" And, and I, I, I don't feel comfortable with that. Do pay some leaders extraordinary amount of money, but, but this, especially living in the States, when you realize there's a much bigger economy than like the FTSE.

[00:20:58] Kate Adams: So 

[00:20:58] Kate Adams: at home, there's massive [00:21:00] salaries in the FTSE. Here, there's, there's just, In North Carolina, there's organizations three, with three billion dollar turnover, and that's just a family business owned by a father and son. And the scale of business over here has really helped me reflect.

[00:21:12] Kate Adams: So writing the book, I was thinking, "This isn't just about listed companies." This is ... There's huge family businesses. There's lots of mid-sized to large-sized businesses that are facing this same scenario. So it's not this ... It, it's not just written for, the b- the big publicly listed FTSE. And not every leader, like you say, has, has a big sense of purpose, or their company doesn't have a big sense of purpose.

[00:21:34] Kate Adams: And we expect a lot from leaders. We expect all of them to have rinsed this thinking through their business, and it's not always possible. It's not always appropriate for the business. So I also wanted to bring a perspective that, so let's just be I don't know. Someone asked me the other day, "I'm, I'm not in business, but I'm gonna read your book.

[00:21:53] Kate Adams: What, What, do you think I'll get out of it?" And I, And

[00:21:55] Kate Adams: I, I really hope you see leadership in a slightly different [00:22:00] way and just how challenging it is and also what a, what a sort of personal sacrifice it is. And people find that really hard to hear, and they're like, "But that's why they get paid," and I don't equate the two.

[00:22:09] Kate Adams: I, I find it,

[00:22:11] Kate Adams: I find it interesting 'cause I also used to w- my, the first part of my career was working in compensation. That's what I did. And I, and I

[00:22:17] Kate Adams: sort of joke, 

[00:22:18] Helen Wada: a human capital, right?

[00:22:19] Kate Adams: actually human capital, and I, I think, I, I joke sometimes that ... No, it's not a joke. The you can earn s- a certain amount of money which tips you into this is compensation for the life you're not living, and this is compensation for the public r- the p- personal risk that you're taking. And I, I don't know if people see it that way, but I, I'm y- you asked who I am. I want my life to be an adventure, and I, I want to travel lots. That's one of the best things about living here is just 28 states and 13 national parks and

[00:22:47] Kate Adams: getting under the skin and culture of people and what makes the world go round. If you want to be a CEO with those really high salaries, you I think there's a, the sad reality is there's a lot of, of your life you've said goodbye to, maybe [00:23:00] temporarily. There's also some stats in the book where there's trends now that some CEOs will negotiate such huge packages for the one job they only intend to do this job once. So there, there's a decline in the number of repeat CEOs for instance because the, there's the acknowledgement that the job's becoming difficult. So it's fascinating what's actually happening to that CEO role, and therefore, to come back to that question about what kind of human beings are happy to do that, willing to do that?

[00:23:29] Helen Wada: you talked about curiosity. You talked about your mentor, get, get curious. I've got two questions, but I'm gonna try and ask them one at a time, 'cause I, I... When, when I was first training as a coach, I used to double, double up questions.

[00:23:41] Helen Wada: They're like, "No, you can't do 

[00:23:42] Kate Adams: say Marvin 

[00:23:51] Insights from CEO Interviews

[00:23:51] Helen Wada: conversations that you had in writing the book?

[00:23:54] Kate Adams: I obviously interviewed a lot of CEOs and, and chairs in the book to, to write the book. [00:24:00] There was a sense of people felt almost relief that someone was looking into this as a topic, as if it hadn't been called out before, which I thought was really fascinating. I think, I think there was this desire to sort of be, be seen and held in this way, as I think I got the impression more people were feeling the personal risk of leadership when there's more scrutiny. Another thing that really struck me, one of the biggest things that struck me is the rise in CEOs that now don't wanna do any media or have a public facing persona. They just want to get on with the job. And and that, that's fascinating and I was still thinking where, where does that take us?

[00:24:43] Kate Adams: It doesn't mean they don't wanna be accountable, by the way, because accountability is what you do, it's not what you say. And I think they're saying... I think there's now a shift, and may- maybe this is what's happening, is it's not that there's a decline in accountability, but people, I think, used to maybe talk about it more because it was good for the brand. [00:25:00] But it's funny you used the phrase earlier head above the parapet, and in fact the book was gonna be titled something about above the parapet and I shifted it to Accountability Under Fire. But because that sense of when you put your head above the parapet and, you, I guess, attract more scrutiny, is it the people that are trying hardest that get the most scrutiny and get shot at the most versus those that aren't trying at all? And is it better just to say nothing but do brilliant things?

[00:25:30] Helen Wada: Which, which is interesting, and it, it leads me on to, to the next question because you... what you're talking about is not... it's not just about what you say, but it's almost how these leaders need to be, and that's what I talk about from a, from a coaching perspective. How do you need to be as a leader not just what you need to, to do and say?

[00:25:49] Helen Wada: And so my, my second question is about you, Kate, 'cause I... What have you learnt about yourself

[00:25:56] Kate Adams: Yeah

[00:25:56] Helen Wada: process?

[00:25:59] Kate Adams: [00:26:00] Good question. I think, I mean, gosh, there's a lot I re- learned about being an author, Helen. If I'm gonna... I, I'm gonna try and answer the question in terms of what I learned about myself as a leader. Is that the right, is the right approach? Yeah,

[00:26:10] Kate Adams: okay. 

[00:26:10] Helen Wada: Not learning from Brooke stuff at the moment

[00:26:13] Kate Adams: Um, 

[00:26:14] Kate’s Lessons from Scrutiny

[00:26:14] Kate Adams: Yeah, I think I re-lived some of my own experiences when writing it.

[00:26:21] Kate Adams: So there was one ... And, and I, I suppose one, one that's good is I'm lucky enough I wasn't the CEO when these scrutinies happened, but I was exceptionally close to the CEO when they did. So for instance, when I was working at Comic Relief, there was a Panorama expose on

[00:26:36] Helen Wada: Oh

[00:26:37] Kate Adams: our investment policy, and this was back I th- I think, I wanna say 2009 or '10.

[00:26:41] Kate Adams: It's a while

[00:26:42] Kate Adams: ago. And just witnessing what that felt like as a human being when you thought you were being told you were wrong and you didn't get the chance to defend yourself, and then should you be defending yourself? But then you're curious about why, why do other, why is this warrant being on a, a prime time documentary [00:27:00] about what we're doing wrong?

[00:27:01] Kate Adams: Because we're only trying to do things that are right. Why is there this scrutiny, and why do people think this is bad? We didn't, we didn't think of it like that, and now we ... Now thank you for telling us. We're gonna change our policy.

[00:27:13] Kate Adams: There was so many emotions around frustration, anger, sadness, guilt that would go on.

[00:27:20] Kate Adams: So I think as I was writing, as we learning how did I feel in that situation. And we had sitting on the board of ParalympicsGB, we ...And, and this never got to big public scrutiny, but we discussed topics like how do we feel about Russia competing in the Paralympic Games given the Ukraine conflict, and what is the right?

[00:27:43] Kate Adams: I mean, long, long

[00:27:45] Kate Adams: since learned there's no right way. 

[00:27:47] Kate Adams: I certainly learnt. 

[00:27:48] Kate Adams: What, what is the right approach for us to take, and who do you draw from? So that's a fascinating one in sense of so what do the athletes think about what should our voice be? So, we were [00:28:00] asked to kind of what, what were our thoughts.

[00:28:01] Kate Adams: Do we think that the Russian athletes should be allowed to compete or not? And of course you can have an emotional opinion, but the other thing you learn in those situations is it's not about emotional opinions. It's about what's the, what's the fact-based, what's the, what's the legitimate? I mean, you can have emotional opinions. They're, they're not how you're gonna be able to argue f- very well necessarily in terms of impactful arguments. So where does it break any constitution and can you pick up on those points? But what do the athletes think? We had athletes that have are really good friends with other Russian athletes and other, other athletes that, that would think it was terrible.

[00:28:36] Kate Adams: How do you navigate that? What do our corporate partners think? What does the government think? We're the national team. What do we all think on the, around the board table?

[00:28:45] Kate Adams: And so I, l- what did I learn? I, I, I really unpacked my own experiences to get into that sense of diversity of perspectives. Everyone's views are legitimate

[00:28:58] Helen Wada: Yeah

[00:28:59] Kate Adams: But you have to [00:29:00] find a way forward. So how do you lead in a way that doesn't put your voice necessarily any higher order than anybody else's in these scenarios? So you hold that curiosity, you hold that listening, you try and see the perspectives that are your blind spots. You try and keep perspective based on all these different camps of thinking, and then find a way forward because you do have to decide and commit at some point. So I think I think what did I learn the most? I really scrutinized what I had learned and done well or badly and seen done well and badly in these

[00:29:38] Kate Adams: scenarios to help yeah, just I think just to help to bring a bit more authenticity into it

[00:29:45] Helen Wada: And that, that authenticity point is very much linked to, you've just been talking about those human skills again, Kate.

[00:29:52] Kate Adams: Hmm.

[00:29:52] Helen Wada: And I know y- you come to it towards the end of the book, but very much part of it, how do you lead [00:30:00] others? How do you lead yourself through these turbulent times that aren't going to change, they're only going to increase greater instability, greater political turmoil, economic, who knows where we're gonna go.

[00:30:13] Helen Wada: But, but ultimately what you're coming back to, and it, it comes back to the connection that you and I started off with, is what do we need as leaders in this future world where we're being fired at from all angles? Are the human skills to be able to read the room, to be able to acknowledge people's feelings and thoughts.

[00:30:35] Helen Wada: How did the athletes feel? What does it look like? Now, y- you might, you're not making judgment on all of these feelings, but it's all, for me, it's all data. And the skill of a leader is to be able to take data from different sources, and that includes your ability to have an open and curious conversation, to be able to sit back, to be able to look at things [00:31:00] from the perspective of other people.

[00:31:02] Helen Wada: How do we understand others? It's what I talk in second chapter in my book. It's not just about how you show up, but it's about how we're understanding others and getting curious about where are they coming from. What's their sphere of world they've seen that they can bring to the conversation?

[00:31:19] Kate Adams: Exactly. And actually, how do you hold your own views a little bit more lightly for a while to allow space for the perspective of other views? And I think that's a huge one because as we do need to draw on more perspectives, because I was... We have so many biases built in, right? And actually, this is where genuinely those diverse views help you get perspective a- and help you build resilience actually around how you get to the answer. But how do you hold your personal views lightly enough that you bring space in for other views?

[00:31:52] Leading From Within

[00:31:52] Helen Wada: The challenge for me with all of these skills that we're talking about, and where I'm coming from, the, the human advantage, is that they've historically been [00:32:00] under-invested in because it's not been seen to be direct link to the top and bottom line. Where do you see when you're working with leaders, if you, if you've got senior leaders listening to this podcast, and there's many that will go, "I get it.

[00:32:14] Helen Wada: I'm feeling that. Where do I go?" How can they start to shift their pers- their persona, their perspective to,

[00:32:25] Helen Wada: as I do it, lead from within and, and decide with confidence? Almost I talk about myself with confidence, but in, in what we're talking about, it's how can you lead from within that inner core of who they really are?

[00:32:38] Kate Adams: Yeah. I think where I've seen it done well, it's people that are I guess exposing themselves to more different scenarios and voices because I think you can, you can build more strength and conviction in your own ideas when you've almost traveled through different scenarios before you've got to it. [00:33:00] People that have said, "Okay, I, I saw there were four options here, and I, and I..." So you are getting, like you say, data points, but they might not be the usual data points you're getting.

[00:33:08] Kate Adams: So people that seek out other views all the time, so it's not just when a crisis happens or a difficult decision comes up that you start to seek out these views. You do it from... Or you do it all the time. So that's when I would talk about the sort of stakeholder understanding. In the, in the book specifically, it's around how do you know which, what's signal and what's noise? What do you listen to? What don't you listen to? Well, I guess that's really understanding your business and who the stakeholders of your organization are, those you have the most impact on, and those that actually can impact you the most and more materially. And then so those leaders that think that all of those voices are important and constantly have dialogue with them, and if they can't be doing all that dialogue themselves, others are having dialogue with them and feeding it in, so that when you come to having to take big and difficult decisions that there is no right [00:34:00] answer to, that you are going to upset somebody with your answer because that's, that's how these things go.

[00:34:06] Kate Adams: There isn't... Not everyone's gonna win. You will try and find a win-win situation. I think they're rare. I think increasingly they're rare. So you as a leader then can think, "Well, actually, I already, I've already got in my head that the system that's around us," so I talk a lot about systems thinking.

[00:34:20] Kate Adams: You've understood the system your business is in, so when you make a decision, you've, you've rationalized all in your head, you've prioritized it in your head, and you've worked out, this is what we need to do.

[00:34:31] Kate Adams: I've got some courage and conviction. This is what we need to do. I can explain who's, who's going to maybe not like this decision and how I've come to the decision, not meaning to upset them and, and all those good things, but because I had to do this decision for this. You can explain the trade-offs. And I think that's where I've seen it done best, and even organizations like, for instance, Tony's Chocolonely, who, not only is it

[00:34:59] Kate Adams: so [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Helen Wada: Yes. Get chocolate. Getting chocolate

[00:35:01] Kate Adams: yeah, other chocolate brands are available,

[00:35:03] Kate Adams: but there's a good the they, they were an organization that exists.

[00:35:08] Kate Adams: They're another sort of DNA organization in my ladder. They exist to eradicate child slavery in the chocolate supply chain, right? So good chocolate and eradicate it, and they said, "We have to be in this business in order to understand this business to eradicate child slavery in our supply chain, or in all, all cocoa supply chains." And then they got caught with one of their suppliers supposedly I, I, I can't remember the, I think it's actually, well, then supposedly child labor in the supply chain. And everyone was saying, "Oh, wow, how hypocritical is that?" And their answer was brilliant because they said, "No, we thank you.

[00:35:39] Kate Adams: We now we know it's there, we can tackle it. That's why we have an entirely transparent supply chain, because once it becomes aware, we can tackle it and we can show everybody else how we tackled it so it doesn't happen again." And I just thought, that's one of those c- really confident, bold

[00:35:55] Kate Adams: ways to face the scrutiny that they were getting.

[00:35:58] Kate Adams: It's not like they failed. [00:36:00] They're like, "No, no, this is, this isn't a failure, this is a win because our purpose is really strong and, and actually this will help us to achieve it

[00:36:08] Helen Wada: It's that, it's that confidence to, to be who you are, to lead, comes back to the values. And I think that word awareness is, again, something that I use a lot in my coaching work because people can get flustered or flummoxed when, when they're aware of something or that's difficult or challenging. But, or, but for me, actually, awareness, once we're aware of something, we can then start to do something about it.

[00:36:35] Helen Wada: It, it comes back to the leadership behaviors. If you are aware of what's going on in the room, if you're aware of people's perspective, or if you've understood something, or even noticing what's going on for you in your body. I do a lot of embodied work with coaching, which I think is incredibly powerful for senior leaders.

[00:36:54] Helen Wada: And again, I, I really... My hope is that that becomes more mainstream because it's, [00:37:00] it's certainly well-known in the world of coaching, but it's not yet well-known in the world of business, and it's that, how do you hold yourself and notice that Dave's pointing your body? Because once we're aware, then we can do something about it.

[00:37:13] Kate Adams: Yeah. One of the most powerful things someone once said to me is, "Some things can't be unseen." And it's a really interesting one, like some things can't be unfelt. If you see them and you, and you feel them, and our senses are so strong. Once you know that, acknowledge when you're seeing something different or feeling something differently and are curious about it, I think it's quite... I think various leaders I've spoken to, there's been moments like that that have really changed the way they've seen the world and their leadership

[00:37:40] Helen Wada: Yeah. 

[00:37:41] Top Tip and Closing Questions

[00:37:42] Helen Wada: And we could talk all day, Kate, about this topic, but I am conscious of time, and those listening to us are probably going, "This is really interesting, but I've got another meeting to go to." so on that note, and all, all the wonderful, great stuff that's in the book I'd like to leave listeners with one top tip and one question [00:38:00] for them as they're reflecting on the conversation that you and I have just had

[00:38:03] Kate Adams: the tip is how do you create space between stimulus and response

[00:38:12] Helen Wada: That's a great question.

[00:38:14] Kate Adams: Oh,

[00:38:15] Helen Wada: That's a question. So I 

[00:38:17] Kate Adams: I should say the 

[00:38:18] Helen Wada: what do you want two questions?

[00:38:20] Kate Adams: Yeah, the tip could be make sure you create it. So I, I went into coaching mode rather than the tip. Said that. So I think there's, there's something about how you create space. We are so, everyone expects instant responses these days. How do you, how do you create the space that says "Actually, I'm not going to be the person that has an instant response.

[00:38:41] Kate Adams: I'm gonna have the courage to say, 'Just give me s- a few minutes to think about that."? That, that, that kind of essence. So that, that'd be my tip, is create space.

[00:38:49] Kate Adams: I guess the, the question then, you alluded to this earlier, and I think it's really stood out for me in this conversation and in my own leadership training, I'll never forget probably the most...

[00:38:59] Kate Adams: I've had [00:39:00] a couple of really powerful questions, but one was, it's a h- I think it's an HBR article. Why should anybody be led by you? And then the other one is, what's it like to be on the receiving end of you? And I just... When we are under pressure, there's a question that people can ask, is what's happening inside of you before everybody else sees that version of you? And are you the version... So it's two questions, like double-stepped coaching. So what happens inside of you before it's visible to everybody else, and then what's the version you want everybody to see of you and experience of you?

[00:39:38] Helen Wada: Wonderful. Great questions. Lots to reflect on. For me, it comes back to being human, how you show up, how you understand others, and then, what you do with that data to move the conversation around sustainability and organizations forward. So thank you, Kate, for joining me on the show. It's been a real [00:40:00] pleasure, and I look forward to seeing you in the UK when you're back soon.

[00:40:03] Kate Adams: Not long

[00:40:05] Helen Wada: Take care, and enjoy those adventures

[00:40:08] Kate Adams: Thank you 

[00:40:08]

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