Human Wise

Ep29: How Open Conversations on Pay Can Enhance Workplace Culture with Rahim Rajan

• Helen Wada • Season 2 • Episode 29

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Welcome to Human Wise, the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work.

With host Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage, each episode will explore what being human at work looks like across a wide range of industries, from people in senior management to those on the ground.

Unlock the secrets to redefining corporate reward systems by placing the human element at the core of financial advantage. In this insightful episode, Rahim Rajan, a leading expert from Andaz Advantage, delves into the evolving landscape of employee compensation, advocating for transparency, trust, and authenticity within organizations. Discover how legislative changes are reshaping the way businesses handle pay equity and transparency and learn why addressing these issues can create a culture of openness and inclusivity.

We explore Rahim's journey and expertise in restructuring pay philosophies to benefit both businesses and employees, emphasizing the crucial role of open dialogues and innovative reward approaches. Dive into the complexities of performance assessment, the delicate balance of individual versus collective negotiation, and real-world strategies for enhancing job satisfaction and fairness in the workplace.

Whether you're an HR professional, business leader, or an employee seeking to understand the intricacies of company reward systems, this episode provides valuable perspectives on making workplaces more human-centered. Don't miss this opportunity to gain insights on fostering a thriving work environment where everyone feels valued.

Topics Discussed:

  • Human-centered reward approaches
  • Pay transparency legislative changes
  • Building trust through communication
  • Flexible compensation and benefits
  • Defining pay fairness principles

View Extended Shownotes here

About Rahim Rajan

Rahim is Director at Andaze Advantage, a reward consultancy that helps organisations realise long-term financial advantage through their reward programs while delivering employee engagement gains. His current clients are in the e-commerce and accounting sectors.  Rahim has considerable experience in truly global Reward leadership roles with different ownership models and industries.  He has a proven track record in delivering innovative reward programs and is an advocate for pay equity and greater transparency and authenticity in rewards. 

Further links to follow:

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Ep. 29. How Open Conversations on Pay Can Enhance Workplace Culture with Rahim Rajan

​[00:00:00] 

Introduction and Guest Welcome

Helen Wada: Hello and good afternoon. Welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Rahim Rajan here with me today. Rahim and I have known each other for goodness, too many years to count actually Rahim, but you know, wonderful relationship. We've worked together before. You're currently a director at Andaze Advantage, an award consultancy that helps organizations realize long term financial advantage through their reward programs.

While delivering on [00:01:00] employee engagement gains, I think the thing for me about the way in which you approach the ward and why I was keen for you to come on the show is. Is really you approach it from a human way and you've worked in the media sector. You've worked across a number of different organizations, really developing innovative reward approaches that really puts the human and the person at the center of what a business is trying to do.

So, welcome him. Wonderful to have you on the show. 

Rahim Rajan: It's great to be here.

Helen Wada: tell the listeners just a little bit about yourself. Obviously there's a little CV there from my side, but tell the listeners a little bit more about your background and what you do.

Rahim Rajan's Background and Career

Rahim Rajan: Okay. So, I am a reward leader through and through. I'm very passionate about how people get paid, rewarded, recognized at work. And so all my career, I have been. Working usually [00:02:00] as part of the HR leadership team and thinking through how can firstly, we drive financial performance for the company, but at the same time, make sure that our people feel engaged

And happy at work.

And yes, as you said, Helen, lots of different sectors, US headquartered businesses, European headquartered businesses, some listed, some not listed, private equity back in environments. But through all of those very different environments, it just comes back to the same I guess, central core hook for me, which is, which is reward and pay, which is something that I think we all think about, we all care about.

And yet there's a huge amount of taboo attached to saying you care about it. And, you know, not wanting to seem as money driven in a way but we all are to a certain extent. So I think it's, It's been a Wonderful career so far [00:03:00] challenging, but I think partly challenging because it's hugely sensitive. And we as leaders have to sort of negotiate them.

So navigate that, haven't we? And get through side and do what's right for multiple stakeholders on that topic. I

Helen Wada: I think you're absolutely right. And it's one of these things that we almost don't speak about often enough. And we're going to dig into that a little bit more in a moment, but one of the questions that I always ask the wonderful guests that join me on Human Wise is. 

Defining Being Human at Work

Helen Wada: What does being human at work mean to you?

Rahim Rajan: think that's an excellent question to me. It is. How you are outside of work and what are the things you do when you either log in for your day because you're working at home or where you cross that threshold of an office building. Because you're physically going into work, obviously, you need to be professional.

Obviously, [00:04:00] you need to be respectful of the different people you work with. But are there some human ways of dealing with people, whether that's showing care or showing some kind of sharing a story or whatever it is, you stop doing because you've crossed that barrier. And for me. Being human at work is trying to not drop those things when you, when you cross that boundary and carry on being yourself, obviously, the environment you work in can help you do that or somehow be a barrier to you doing that.

I've definitely had that in the past where I thought I couldn't do that. But to me, being human is absolutely bringing, bringing that self to work. 

Helen Wada: And it's, and it's interesting that you, you pick up on that, that actually there's times in your career in the past where you, you felt unable to bring yourself to work. 

Navigating Career Challenges

Helen Wada: Just tell [00:05:00] me a little bit more about how that felt, if you can remember and what you did to navigate that in the circumstances, if, if anything.

Rahim Rajan: well, I think, I think it's quite normal early career and maybe mid career to, you know, you're, you're climbing, you're, you're climbing the ladder. You're going into more and more senior jobs. You, you're ambitious. I certainly am, but probably it was more ambitious 10, 15 years ago than I am today and now early fifties.

So I think part of it was normal, but then there was also this difference sometimes between the person I am and the values I had one particular organization. I thought the values they had and that's not to be. Negative in any way, but it does make you feel like, okay, I'm entering somewhere slightly different.

I need to act in a different way and I suppose it's very similar. Let's say you went to a really [00:06:00] really luxurious five star hotel that was quite stuff, you know, beautiful, but stuffy and you walked into that sort of reception area and you think You know you very automatically Change you are rain it in and I think that's normal.

But then if that's going on for 8, 9, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, actually, I think it can become quite energy sapping.

Helen Wada Video: Mm.

Rahim Rajan: If you know, there are lots of things about that environment that you do enjoy. So, for the last few years, I think I've been in a much different place where I'm bringing myself to work every day.

Helen Wada Video: Mm.

Rahim Rajan: I'm expressing my opinions. I'm learning from the people around me and when we're not talking about work, but I'm talking to a colleague of mine or or somebody in my team. It feels like a conversation I would have. With one of my friends of an evening in a restaurant and I think that the feeling of okay this now You know, I've got a job to do here, but I'm [00:07:00] also being human

Helen Wada: And I think that's, I think that's wonderful. I think there's something about recognizing number one, who we are, which isn't always easy. I think particularly, you know, you and I are mid stage to create, you know, almost 50 or you're just the other side, you know, in terms of there's a lot of experience that we all change as human beings, but there's something about being really honest with ourselves about who we are, what's important to us.

Helen Wada Video: and

Helen Wada: Is where you're at the right place and sometimes you have to be, we have to be grown up and go, you know what, this isn't the right place for me, but I will find a space. And I think the thing about being authentic, being true to who you are, we owe it to ourselves to be honest with ourselves, to be happy and fulfilled.

And I think. You know, we'll come on to reward in a moment, but compensation in the broadest sense is, is something that is important to people, [00:08:00] particularly in a world where, you know, costs are increasing for, for everybody. We all want different things, things, you know, things, different things matter to different people.

And so it does come very, you know, in the center to, to think about that reward, that, that package is compensation. But if you think historically. 

Transparency and Pay Equity

Helen Wada: There is quite a lot of secrecy and transparency issues around pay and reward. And I know, you know, I'll ask you to talk a bit in a moment about some of the legislative changes that are coming down the line.

You know, I was with a group this morning and when we were talking, we weren't talking about reward by the way, we were just talking about building relationships, how do you influence stakeholders and things. And one of the things we were talking about was, Building an element of trust

Helen Wada Video: over

Helen Wada: time, and also transparency is absolutely fundamental to having good business relationships, whether that's internal, whether you're building customer relationships or with external [00:09:00] stakeholders, you then translate trust and transparency to reward.

And one of the things that has prevailed certainly in my career in larger organizations is secrecy.

Rahim Rajan: Mm

Helen Wada: And I'm just curious, from your perspective, you're at the front line on this, looking at the way the world will change for individuals, for organizations, what, what are you seeing and how does it impact who we are in the human at work?

Rahim Rajan: hmm. That's not that's such a good observation Helen and thinking about your own career as well it the impact is massive, isn't it? Because I think as a UK society, and I know you have listeners who are from other parts of the world. But certainly from a UK perspective and many cultures. We don't talk about money.

We don't talk about pay. We don't talk about our incomes. I mean, my best friends. Well, no, how much I earn. I'm [00:10:00] very lucky to be from a very rich multicultural background. There are other parts of my family in different parts of the world where, where it says normal and asking somebody, how much do you earn is as normal as, you know, when, you know, is going to rain this afternoon.

So it's, it really is partly cultural, but then we, we, as organizations and leaders. Exacerbate it, don't we? I mean, many people work in either have contracts or if not contracts, employee handbook, staff handbooks, where it says, do not talk about your compensation or reward topics to your to your colleagues.

And, of course, if we are more and more quite rightly working for large or small organizations. Where there, where we're defining what values are important to us, what culture we want to drive. Very few statements about culture

Rahim Rajan Video: don't

Rahim Rajan: don't have something [00:11:00] around openness and transparency. I think if you or I were to sort of do some desk research on 50 companies, we'd probably find 48, 49 would have one of their 3, 4, 5 pillars, if you like, talking about transparency.

See? And then here we are with a really, really important aspect that we actually have been telling people for years and years and years, don't talk about this. If you look at a typical employee satisfaction survey, for example, there will be many, many questions about leadership, communications. Do you feel you can advance your career here?

At best, you might get a very broad I am, you know, probably doesn't even use the word pain. You know, I am rewarded and recognized, you know, fairly for my contribution. And that's the only question. So it's really, it's a really tricky

Rahim Rajan Video: [00:12:00] Tricky

Rahim Rajan: topic. All the things to now need to be more transparent about because of the legislative changes, the longest journey to go on from an organization perspective, in my view, is.

Pay going from where we are today, where we need to get to.

Helen Wada: great observations in it, and it's interesting coming from somebody that's effectively spent most of your career, In rewarding, you've seen how things have moved and shifted and in a way, not a lot, you know, in the 30 years I've been working, it hasn't moved a huge, but, you know, we've, we've gone from maybe it's just sort of salary and maybe some bonus to that, the whole reward in terms of looking at different.

Options that people can take and, you know, so we've gone to that sort of that whole reward, the compensation package as a whole, but actually the transparency, the secrecy around reward is kind of, for the most part, short of maybe some banding groups that may or may not be communicated, [00:13:00] but has remained the same.

Just for those listeners that aren't as familiar with the legislative changes that are coming down the line in the UK. Can you just give us a brief summary of what, what they are and what that is going to mean for. Organizations,

Legislative Changes in Pay Transparency

Rahim Rajan: there, there, there are definite milestones happening now, but I would say over the course of the last five years plus globally, year by year, there has been more and more legislation on a couple of areas. Firstly, pay equity. And when we talk about pay equity, We're referring to are we paying fairly when you compare men with women and then depending on the country, it could be from a racial perspective as well and other characteristics to but the other great body of legislation is paid transparency.

And it's been coming in and dribs and drabs as well, if I'm honest and within the UK as well. So, [00:14:00] for example, in in in the US and many countries now, you can't ask in an interview process. How much do you currently earn in your current role? You can ask what your salary expectations.

Rahim Rajan Video: can't

Rahim Rajan: Can't find out their current salaries illegal to do so.

And similarly, we have elements of that now in, in, in, in Europe. And then more specifically in the, in, in the EU by the summer of 2026, member states have to adopt legislation around paid transparency. Now, of course, this is a directive. So the actual legislation hasn't come. Yeah, but what it would basically mean is a lot more transparency about what pay range you, you sit in the company's approach to pay and also around pay equity, you know, having to declare how you pay differently between men and women.

And I think even though [00:15:00] the legislation from one perspective might be quite narrow.

Rahim Rajan Video: Do

Helen Wada Video: Organizations,

Rahim Rajan: Do you think there's a Trojan horse of beginning to talk about pay more generally year on year and, you know, in five years time, I think it'll be the legislation will probably go even further. So I think we're at the beginning of a journey here around greater, greater transparency on this topic.

Helen Wada: which is really interesting going back to that sort of that honest, that open openness from a, from a values perspective, I can imagine, you know, actually, is this something that the businesses will fear? Or actually, is there a way that this can be used proactively as an opportunity to really start to build an open culture on pay?

And I'm just curious about what you think 

Rahim Rajan: I mean, I don't think that's an either or. I think that's a yes and yes. If you look at how businesses have behaved in the past, as I said, not asking those [00:16:00] questions in the employee satisfaction survey, avoiding pay in focus groups, I think absolutely. Organizations will be fearing the worst, thinking they're opening up a can of worms, let's say, and really taking the attitude that to talk about pay is to really rile everybody up and make everyone, you know, very disappointed and upset because we know when it comes to pay.

All the theories around how people feel about pay is as much as the actual amount you earn is important. It's that relativity to other people who you think are doing the same job as you and contributing in the same way, getting paid less or more. That's really where people have you know, it's, it's a very sensitive, sensitive topic.

So people will be, organizations will definitely be worried about this. Thanks. But with every change comes an opportunity [00:17:00] to turn it into something more positive. So my recommendation to organizations, which, and it isn't easy. Is to try to be in the, you know, in the front driving seat on this topic. And not to look at this as we better keep out of the court somehow and.

Do the minimum we need to do to be okay. This is about, as you said, trust. It's more transparency needs to come from trust. And so start building that trust now. How, you know, how do you build trust? 

Building Trust Through Communication

Rahim Rajan: I think the first thing that that organizations could do is be very practical about this. Look at what are the current inconsistencies in your organization on pay practices.

Because most HR teams reward teams know that there are inconsistencies, you know, people have negotiated things in the past. There's been [00:18:00] exceptions, there's been a, there's been an acquisition and there are different terms and conditions, so really defensible reasons why there's difference. Take the opportunity to think, okay, it used to be defensible 3 years ago.

Now, we're moving into this new world. Is there anything we can standardize before. Before things become more transparent, so use that opportunity in 1 client. I'm working with now. We've agreed that the annual pay review is going to be. You know, quite modest, but there's going to be a decent sizable budget for making sure everybody is in the right pay range for the job they're doing so that someone can do very practical.

But then I think what organizations could also do is,

Rahim Rajan Video: you

Rahim Rajan: you know, really look at the reward philosophy, the pay philosophy you've got, and actually if that's too much of a task for whatever reason, new CEO coming in. You don't have 1 to start with, and there's only a few months [00:19:00] where perhaps you want to get something out there at least define. What is your definition as an organization of pay fairness? What does pay fairness mean to your organization? Define it and be really clear. These are the factors that will never drive pay. Someone's gender, someone's sexual orientation, race. Ability, age, none of this will drive pay. However, these are the things that we seek to differentiate pay on and company.

It is individual performance or team performance or critical skills. So you'll have to make sure that those things are assessed in a fair way. And there's no unconscious bias in how those things are assessed.

Every, every human being has a different definition of what is fair. It's hugely subjective. [00:20:00] You get two employees together and they would say, we do the same job.

We're in the same city. We should get paid the same.

You get two other people who would say, we do the same job. We're in the same city. I've got two years experience and she's got nine. So we should pay differently. So you were never going to solve the issue of pay fairness, unless you say, we appreciate there are different interpretations of this, but for As an organization, this is what we mean by pay fairness, so that at the time that there's more and more transparency and people are saying, well, hang on a minute.

I've done this job for 9 years and my colleagues done it for 2 years. I should get paid more. We can say, we appreciate that. That's what you believe here. Corporate definition of pay fairness. And for us, it's about performance. And not necessarily tenure, so.

Helen Wada Video: mm,

Rahim Rajan: These are practical things you can do, I think, to get ahead of it.

And then I said, the last thing for me would be start to talk about pay when you're ready, but not to donate [00:21:00] long, ask those questions in the Pulse survey, even if you say, well, we know we're opening up a can of worms, open it I'm sure some of your. Listeners are, you know, know what, you know, CBT is in a cognitive behavioral therapy and one of the mantras of that is, avoidance breeds maintenance.

So if you don't talk about something, you're not solving it. If anything, it's going deeper and deeper.

Rahim Rajan Video: I

Rahim Rajan: So I think it has to start opening up in terms of employee focus groups, invite, you know, give people a platform to, to raise their, to raise their points that they want to raise. Yes,

Helen Wada: that whole, what's your definition of, of pay fairness? It's like, you know, if you're trying to make a decision on, on anything, like forget reward for a moment. But. You know, if you're purchasing a new car, for example, so we ended up having to get a new car cause our old diesel died a couple of years ago,

Helen Wada Video: but,[00:22:00] 

Helen Wada: you know, setting some parameters about what we needed, what, so that you can measure something else up against it.

I know that's a completely different example, but having those parameters set, you can then evaluate something against that. If you have no goals and nothing set from a philosophy perspective, if you say it gets open to discussion and. And debate and, and can create angst and anxiety, which it goes against that, that being human.

Doesn't it? You know, we're here to be talking about how can we be more human at work? And what, what, what role does reward play in, it's got an absolute critical role for the people about how remuneration that if they're not a shareholder of the business, where they get. And that's a whole nother conversation where, you know, employee owned organizations and so forth.

And the difference that that makes to, [00:23:00] to the commitment and the connection. But when you are receiving a salary and benefits, whatever those may be for your contribution, there's, there's that sense of fairness and also. I think communication is one of the things, you know, we've talked about this in the past about how communication can make or break how people feel about reward.

And I'm just trying to get, cause these are difficult conversations, right?

What your advice and guidance would be around how you can build trust, what sort of communication, the conversations you can have. If you're, if you're having some of these difficult conversations around pay and reward.

Rahim Rajan: and I think you have to go in with a mindset of, you're not trying to solve something. I mean, in some conversations, there might be something to solve. It's more trying to break down this taboo that we have about this topic. So many [00:24:00] employees in different organizations have this experience in countries like the UK, where there was talk about pay.

In that interview at the beginning there was a couple of really short conversations and sadly with more and more automation less so around maybe at the annual pay review time when they got a couple of percent increase and is surprising how many of those are now not even face to face conversations.

And then at the moment they're giving in their notice, sometimes it's in the reason why they're leaving is often a career progression, but sometimes it's I can get paid more here. And it's like, well, you've been here for years. We haven't given you the platform to raise this in a constructive way. We might not have been able to do anything about it, or we might have been able to do something about it.

Rahim Rajan Video: it.

Rahim Rajan: But it's been something that we haven't encouraged. So the first time we're really finding out how you feel about this is [00:25:00] as you're walking out the door. So these would be very, very difficult conversations, but I think it starts from. Corporate communications one to one line manager and individual communications, I think is part of this, but it's not the main driver here.

It's being really clear. This is our pay philosophy. We know we're not here yet. We know this is a vision. This is every decision we take is moving us, inching us towards this vision. And also then being really clear that These are the platforms we have for you to raise questions about not only your pay, but our approach to anything, pension, cars are well, you know, well being just opening up the forums and making sure it really feels two way and try to, you know, try to break down this, try to break down this taboo.

Helen Wada: It's really interesting, isn't it, in terms of some of the most important, but the most difficult conversations that, that people do [00:26:00] naturally shy away from but, but we need to be embracing as part of this trust, the transparency, the, the leading with humanity, recognizing where these people are coming from.

And you're right, Individual businesses can't always change, you know, you can't always meet the expectations or ambitions of, of the individuals you've got that in it just may not be plausible from, from a business perspective, but creating that open channel of conversation in terms of, you know, why you might not be making that next grade or what is the performance?

I think, you know,

Helen Wada Video: I think, you know,

Helen Wada: it links very clearly into open, honest performance conversations. Because sometimes too often performance is kind of gone, you know, we don't talk about where things could be different or could be enhanced. And so, rightly or wrongly, you know, people go on thinking I'm doing an amazing job, [00:27:00] whereas actually that's when that sort of meets expectations, that's not going to result in anything different at the end of the year.

So much of that. Is because of lack of communication throughout the year

Rahim Rajan Video: Mm.

Helen Wada: and everything's sort of then hold up towards the end in terms of one final conversation when people are blindsided and I think that's where it, the trust level starts to break down.

Rahim Rajan: I do think, I mean, transparency, we've talked about for the last few minutes. I think what you've hit on here is actually as much of an issue as anything else. It's this, it's this delta between the formal communications that we see around reward,

Helen Wada: Mm hmm.

Rahim Rajan: and far between anyway, and then what we as employees feel about reward or hear about reward any other time.

And I think one of, one of those [00:28:00] is very similar to the, what you just raised Helen is often, I think. Companies are really bullish about when there's communication about company performance, it can be quite sugar coated,

but, you know, we didn't really well, we've, you know, gone into this market as we've just launched this product.

We're doing really well top line and then it gets to the end of the year and it gets to the bonus pay out and then the bonus pay out. Maybe is very disappointing because targets haven't been met and are nowhere close to being met and people are thinking, but all of the communication has been so buoyant all year around how we're performing.

And I think these are the things that organizations, communications teams, reward teams have to think is treat people as adults. Of course you can't be negative in your communications if you're not having the [00:29:00] strongest year. It's an opportunity to sort of still celebrate that people have been working really hard.

And there will always be some wins you can rely on. But if you are turning what, what needs to be quite a difficult message about performance in something that's so sugar coated that people can't see it. When those things then fall through flow through to any reward vehicle that's related to that.

It does feel not only confusing, but people think the company is pulling a fast one to be honest. They think that maybe the executives are getting a full bonus payout and we're not. So I think it's really important to.

Rahim Rajan Video: Temper

Rahim Rajan: and be authentic in the communication about how the company is doing and about all reward communications clarity is more important than sugarcoating.

Helen Wada: Clarity is more important than sugarcoating, I, I like that. 

Executive Pay vs. Employee Pay

Helen Wada: I'm going to push you on something now a little bit [00:30:00] more that, that's highly topical with him around, you know, the pay for chief executives and board versus that of, you know, say the layman, but, but those are more junior levels of the organization, because I saw something only yesterday about how much over the last sort of 10, 15 years, And I think it may have been an American stat, but how the percentage for, for the senior focus increased significantly more than the, than the average increase for, you know, the average worker.

So to speak, I'm just, you know, interested to your perspective on that. What's driving that where, because that drives a sense of feeling amongst people, particularly in larger businesses that, you know. What's my worth type thing what can, what can businesses do about that? And on the other side, what, how do we, how do we as individuals need to be thinking about that in a different way, maybe?

[00:31:00] Yeah.

Rahim Rajan: I think it is how we think about it in a different way. I believe that the gap between the top layer, and it's not even necessarily the top layer, but the top two or three layers, and then the roles that are sitting at the other end of the organization, that gap in the capitalist societies we all live in, is, is going to get more impacted by the value of organizations than any kind of legislation or legislation, but requirement to disclose.

So, I'm not sure I have an answer on what to do about that. Yeah

I think it's more around again being really clear with the organization and opening up transparently transparency generally. About about reward and also thinking about the different conversations we have [00:32:00] so let's take in many many countries.

They have works councils in in in many countries you have trade unions that can often be quite a negative. Tone about having to work with these other bodies who obviously have the interests. Of employees at heart and pays 1 of those main things that. Could be discussed and they could be collected bargaining or negotiated outcomes on pay with those bodies.

I think it's approaching those in a much more positive way. Because if we think about fairness at all levels of the organization. You know, many organizations in the UK are thinking about, you know, a living wage proponents, not just the national minimum wage. There are lots of things we can do as part of our commitments to our people to make living conditions or living wage really, [00:33:00] really fair. In the fact that it used to be, you know, time, whatever, times 20 and now it's times 35. I think that is more of a societal question. I think what we can do. Is to just really focus on those lower levels and pay fairly, but not only pay fairly, but think about the broader reward package. You mentioned Helen reward is a lot more than pay and, and, and a couple of benefits now, well being it's recognition.

It's a lot more different types of employee benefits than we had before. And thinking about what. Engages every employee, whether it's giving them more flexibility, working a four day working week, having more flexibility in the benefits they choose being able to work in a way that they're able to, you know, manage their non work life and family and elderly parents or whatever that might be.

I think those, if you're very [00:34:00] singular in your reward package around base pay, then that's going to come into more focus when it comes to the exec top exec pay versus. You know, other, you know, other pay, but if you sort of saying pay is 1 element. And what we do is we respect you through a broad spectrum of reward.

Policies and practices and vehicles. Then I think at least can turn the conversation into it into slightly, slightly more positive 1.

Helen Wada Video: And

Helen Wada: think that's a really nice way to, to bring it round because that's, that flexibility

is about putting the human at the heart of those conversations.

Rahim Rajan: yes, yes,

Helen Wada: It takes it away from less about the, the absolute number, because let's be honest, you know, we will all spend that little bit more if we get that little bit 3%, it kind of goes in the wash, unfortunately in today's world with the cost of things.

But that flexibility, putting the human at the heart, I [00:35:00] was talking to somebody yesterday and they were explaining their setup. They've got a three year old child. They work compressed hours. So for them, they're doing a full day week, but over four, four and a half days, 

Helen Wada Video: um, 

Helen Wada: two of which are absolutely in the office.

There's that flexibility to come in on a third day where they need to. But that means that. They can live in a place that they can afford so that they're not traveling two hours every single day. And for them, they like the people, they like the camaraderie, the work is interesting. You're getting to do new things.

It deflects back so much from the number

Helen Wada Video: by

Helen Wada: going back to your reward philosophy at the top. You started the conversation with this in. What does our reward philosophy include, first of all,

Helen Wada Video: and

Helen Wada: what does it mean? And I think particularly in today's hybrid world, where I think organizations are [00:36:00] really still trying to balance that.

What's right. What's not from a connection, working at home, working in the office, collaboration, put a view that all comes into your reward and your recognition philosophy, that recognition about how people feel valued

Rahim Rajan: absolutely.

Helen Wada: far beyond the numbers. And what

Rahim Rajan: really does. And with, with flexibility, I think also comes responsibility

Helen Wada Video: Mm.

Rahim Rajan: in organizations over, over in the past. What we've had is decisions about pay being made by the organization as they should be, and, you know, policies made by the organization, not inviting any feedback, not having any focus groups on the topic.

And so. If you like the reward teams, the leadership teams, HR leadership teams have been responsible and here's the package. We're not even asking you, but here's the package you get. This is your pension. This is your health care. You know, this, this is everything, but by [00:37:00] saying, actually, you have choice and trying to really push the boundaries on choice, which I would recommend most companies to do.

Helen Wada Video: what does that,

Helen Wada: what does that look like for him? But it's the flavor of pushing the boundaries on choice. 

Innovative Reward Approaches

Helen Wada: What would, what are you seeing in terms of innovative approaches in the market?

Rahim Rajan: Yeah, so I think the choice and employee benefits has been around for a while

what the pandemic has done. Is lift the lid on when we talk about choice, could that be expanded beyond employee benefits, which at the moment could be like, you know, do I add people in my family to the private health insurance or do I take slightly more pension, slightly less pension, but broadening that out to.

Working patterns, broadening that out to

You know, how many, you know, how many days a week I want to work even some, some companies I don't think have done this, but some discussions I've heard is like bringing in a 13th month pay now, many countries in Europe have like a [00:38:00] 13th month of pay. So you get, you know, 13 installments a year, not 12.

And maybe that's quite a nice way for some people to have an extra paycheck. In July or December and choose whether they want to get paid in 12 or 13 in 30. Sometimes these things have very, very little, if any financial impact to the organization, but the signal to the person is. There are things we need to be consistent about here.

We have practices, we have policies, we have standards, we have governance, but you as an individual have different needs. We're not going to pretend we know what those needs are. Is a cafeteria of lots of different choice around your benefits, your working hours, 12 or 13 payments a year on your salary.

Helen Wada: Maybe things like sabbatical, you know, time out when the business is, if the business is cyclical,

how does that work giving you time maybe with older parents or children or.

Helen Wada Video: know, my,

Helen Wada: My, my brother lives in New Zealand where people have got family on the other side of the [00:39:00] world is common these days, having time to go and spend with them the flexibility that they need to do that.

Rahim Rajan: we talk about New Zealand. One company that I spoke to is a couple of years ago. I don't think they implemented it. We're thinking of doing 20 days a holiday, 20 days of holiday a year instead of 25 as a choice, but then you chose that model every 4th year, you've got an extra month, so that's, you know, you could, but then again, rather than enforce it, forcing it on everybody, it was, You've got two holiday patterns.

You can have the same every year, or you can have these bumper years, so you can do either just for your well being, or go and see that family in New Zealand, India, Brazil, wherever they are. So, it's being innovative, and I think often these things cost very little, but signal. Imagine in the interview process for that company, just talk, just smack off, being modern.

Being caring, being innovative, and it's just going to stand out. It's always going to stand out.

Helen Wada Video: And

Helen Wada: It's putting the human back into the [00:40:00] reward

practices, coming back to being human wise. Let's listen to the humans. Let's listen to the people. What is it that they want? How can we shape a philosophy for the world? And benefits because the two come together and rewards, benefits, and flexibility.

I think we add to that because you're right. Reward and benefits have been around for a long time, but it's how do you embrace that rewards the benefits of flexibility and the communication and the transparency. To thinking about the people at the heart of this we could talk forever. We've, we've already been going, and I'm conscious when people are listening to this, that they've only got a set time in lunch breaks or evenings before we close out.

I think maybe one top tip or something to think about for the leaders that are in this space. When they're planning the rule practices, so it's a number one, maybe one tip for individuals as well as how to broach these conversations with your managers and leaders. Thanks. And then maybe one question for people to reflect on

Rahim Rajan: [00:41:00] Okay. For, for the top leaders.

I don't have a, apart from a call to action, I think

Helen Wada: love it.

Rahim Rajan: it's, it's really a, how about courage being your corporate superpower on this topic and being vulnerable about this topic? Because if your position is always, this is a can of worms, the fact is, you know, it's a can of worms.

Why aren't you addressing that can of worms? So I would be courageous about it in a structured way. This is not just going in tomorrow and going, Hey, have a look at the notice board where, you know, revealing lots of things we shouldn't be revealing. Of course, it's not that, but I think that's, that's my tip and advice.

For individuals. There are actually more and more tools there about how to have a conversation with your manager about your pay. As somebody who's been in pay for 25 years plus, I get really nervous about those tools. [00:42:00] I wonder whether it's about seeing things in a different way. So, just as we

Rahim Rajan Video: are 

Rahim Rajan: Arguing for more transparency in one direction.

I think there's also if I'm an individual to not not worry about my own pain to have conversations, but to also ask as many questions about pay as a collective, you know, if my if this team did well, if we knocked out of the park. How do we get rewarded?

Helen Wada: mm,

Rahim Rajan: Because the interesting thing about all of this going in and asking for a pay rise for yourself, which absolutely understand why people would want to do that,

Helen Wada: mm.

Rahim Rajan: we it's almost going against the grain in a world where we're trying to be more and more consistent and be more transparent.

We're going to have to actually start not allowing exceptions and being really consistent. So think about it from a collective still have the conversation. But how do you ask that conversation on a collective lens? Much [00:43:00] as an individual lens.

I can't remember your third question.

Helen Wada: What's the question question for people to reflect on?

Rahim Rajan: to reflect on is what is your what is your real, you know, connect with your real principle about pay? Because I think there's so much, there's so many layers on top of it. How, I don't want to be seen to be, so I'm not going to do that. It's, it's, like what you said before about authenticity and do you bring your real self to work?

And you made a comment about it takes a long time to realize who you are.

I think when it comes to pay, it can take some people a long time to realize. Actually, that is important to me. Actually, it's not so important to me.

Don't be and to maybe think about how you're going to express that in a, in a non.

In a non confrontational way. So just if you like, unpeel all the layers to get to what you really feel about that topic for you as an employee and for you in life.

Rahim Rajan Video: in general.

Helen Wada: Before you go into those conversations, ask yourself, you know, what is really important to me, [00:44:00] what is the most important? Is it the flexibility? Is it the number at the end of the day? And actually sometimes in the grand scheme of things, longer term experience, Interest learning exposure in different places can take you farther in a, in a further distance, you know, in a shorter time than that sort of just step up the ladder with, with a, a notional increase 

Rahim Rajan: And working with a great culture as well. I mean, I think that's the most important thing for so many people

Helen Wada: Are you happy there? Can you be authentic?

Rahim Rajan: exactly be yourself,

Conclusion and Contact Information

Helen Wada: Um, for him, it's been absolute pleasure. Loved having diving deeper into a topic that's, that can be tricky, right? So really appreciate you coming on board and having the conversation here. Where can people find you if they're interested, if they're looking at the reward structure and going, goodness, what might you do here as we look forward?

Where can people find you?

Rahim Rajan: but absolutely find me on LinkedIn. Rahim Raj and I'm there and there, you will also [00:45:00] see some details of my, of my, of my company. And just, you know, just reach out for a coffee for chat. I am passionate about this topic, probably too passionate. So I'd love to hear from everybody.

Helen Wada: Brilliant. Well, look, thank you for joining me. I have a enjoyable evening and look forward to seeing you soon.

Rahim Rajan: See you soon, Helen. Take care.

Helen Wada: Cheers for him.

Rahim Rajan: Hi. 

​[00:46:00] 

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