Human Wise

Ep24: The Art of Making Human Connections in Business with Phil Smith

• Helen Wada • Season 2 • Episode 24

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Welcome to Human Wise, the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work.

With host Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage, each episode will explore what being human at work looks like across a wide range of industries, from people in senior management to those on the ground.

Unlock the secrets to thriving in business and life with insights from a trailblazer in technology and leadership. In this inspiring episode, former CEO and chairman of Cisco UK and Ireland, Phil Smith, CBE, shares his journey from a microbiology graduate to a top executive at one of the world's leading tech companies. Discover the power of empathy, kindness, and relationship-building in transforming careers and driving commercial success.

Phil unpacks the significance of human-centric skills in today's AI-driven world, the value of authentic salesmanship, and how personal passions can fuel professional excellence. Through rich anecdotes and practical advice, he reveals how to merge technical expertise with a people-first mindset to achieve remarkable results.

Join us as we delve into the importance of connecting with others, leveraging curiosity, and embracing challenges in both personal and professional realms. Whether you're a young professional, a seasoned leader, or simply curious about blending technology and humanity, this episode offers a treasure trove of wisdom and actionable insights.

Topics Discussed:

  • Balancing technology and humanity
  • Skills for successful sales careers
  • Humanizing remote work interactions
  • Importance of kindness in leadership
  • Developing relationship-building skills

View Extended Shownotes here:

About Phil Smith

Chairman IQE PLC. Retired CEO and Chair of Cisco UK and Ireland and now Chairman and Non-Exec Director and Chair of the Digital Skills Partnership. Former Chair of Innovate UK, The Tech Partnership. I am also a trustee of the Productivity Leadership Group/Be the Business, a member of Digital Economy Council and sit on the advisory board of Lloyds Register, The National Theatre, and the University of Coventry. Non-exec Chairman of Appyway and Streeva and a board member of UKCloud

Further links to follow:

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Ep24: The Art of Making Human Connections in Business with Phil Smith Human Wise Podcast

[00:00:00] 

Introduction and Guest Welcome

Helen Wada: So good afternoon and welcome to another episode of human wise. I am delighted to have Phil Smith, CBE here with me today. Phil and I have known each other, gosh many

Phil Smith: Way too long, really.

Helen Wada: way, way too

Phil Smith: We can't be this young and still know each other, can we?

Phil Smith's Career Journey

Helen Wada: but Phil was one of the first people that I reached out to actually when I started my, Independent career and launch the human advantage because not only was he the [00:01:00] former chief executive and chairman of Cisco UK and Ireland, but also he was particularly passionate about innovation skills, leadership supporting women.

And it's been recognized with several industry accolades, mentorship to women and the one of the inaugural kindest lead 50 kindest leaders in 2018. Phil.

Phil Smith: Yep.

Helen Wada: Number of years ago, but

Phil Smith: it was a real honour, because it was the first time they did it, and it was, you know, it was one of those things where the language, if you talked about that a number of years ago, It would have been seen as, you know, a bit wishy washy and whatever, but actually now, you know, kindness and leadership is a really important part of leadership, I think, so.

Helen Wada: absolutely. And I think that's, what's drawn me back to you and having you on the podcast today, because actually it's the commercial insights, the caring, the kindness, the wisdom that you have. I'm really looking forward to the conversation today for human wise. So welcome to the show. 

Phil Smith: It's lovely to see you in the new year, Elvin, in 2025. So let's all be [00:02:00] hopeful and positive and, you know, upbeat that we should be. It's easy to uh, to forget that in this, these challenging times, but but yeah, looking forward to it.

Helen Wada: I think it is. 

Personal Life and Interests

Helen Wada: And I think not only, you know, all the great stuff that you do from a business perspective, but tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you enjoy doing outside of the workplace, a little more about the human side of film.

Phil Smith: I'm uh, you know, long time in business, you know, long in the tooth, some might say in business. You know, I've been working in the technology industry and just enough my degree was actually in microbiology. So somewhat lateral, I did a microbiology degree, which is pretty good degree to do because you can, you know, you work with all the brewing industry and the food industry and so on.

So on your field trips from university, you go and do you know, trips to breweries and stuff like that. So it was really good.

Helen Wada: That sounds far better than my accounting with management. I got to do some budgeting and forecasting for hospital in Columbia, Missouri. I think I'd much.

Phil Smith: yeah, what's the truth between those two? [00:03:00] But no, I, so that was interesting, I did that, but then when I got to graduation, and and interesting, because you're university much earlier, I mean, I actually left school when I was just 16, and I'd done my O levels and my highers, because you do it earlier in Scotland, so I'd done five highers.

And I went to university, just turned 17. So, and so, which was tricky, you know, you had to fake your ID for the first year to be able to go in the apartment and whatnot.

Helen Wada: The days that you can photocopy your birth certificate and all that kind of good stuff.

Phil Smith: absolutely. So we so yeah, we did the degree. And then when I left, I told one of those sliding doors things, bumped into someone. I'd done a little bit, tiny bit, with sort of statistics and computing and microbiology. And you know, computers were in their infancy. And a friend said, Oh, you know, Phillips, who are the electronics people who happened to have a place near to, I grew up in East Kilbride, which is a new town.

And there's a place called Hamilton just next to it. And. There's a big Philips place there and he said, Oh, they're interviewing for [00:04:00] people there. And I went, I'll go in that quietly to this sort of compute idea of this computing hard. So I went along, did an aptitude test. They offered me a job as a graduate in the graduate scheme down in Cambridge.

So I went down to Cambridge. Philips was previously the Pi companies in Cambridge. You know, there was quite a lot of Pi Telecom, Pi Unicam, all that sort of stuff. And so I went down there, started coding in COBOL and other couple of other languages. And then. I kind of got a bit of a propensity at that time for more of the sort of more technical side of things and so I went into what they called system programming.

They were all big IBM users, although it was Philips and they had some of their own computing. There was this big IBM shop. So anyway, I spent a bunch of years in there. Eventually I got headhunted to go to IBM and I moved up to IBM in Warwick. After six years at Phillips, spent nine years at IBM, and then sort of in the last couple of years before I left IBM, this whole kind of internet thing was kind of hanging around way before the web or anything.

So this was back in the late [00:05:00] 80s, early 90s. And IBM had been, you know, building a lot of the backbone of the internet, the ARPANET and so on. And so I got involved in that and bringing sort of the IBM networks and the new world of, you know, internet networking together and came across Cisco friend who was who had moved to there was there.

I went to Cisco and this was, you know, 23 years before I finished at Cisco. And at the time it was tiny. I mean, there was like 10 people in Cisco or something at the time in the UK, at least maybe four or 500 in the world. Brilliant time. So, so that was amazing. Grew up with all that. In the meantime, you know, a family got married while I was in Cambridge to my wife, Steph who was from Chester.

So it was a bit of a long trek between Chester and Cambridge four hour drive. So definitely dedicated. 

Helen Wada: Was definitely worth it. Right.

Phil Smith: Yeah, she's definitely worth it. And we are now being married 40, four years this year. So, 41 years this year. So, so [00:06:00] yeah I love four kids who are now growing up. I've got five grandchildren.

I love cycling. I did triathlon for many years, qualifies for the GB team three times. And then, but my knees a bit dodgy now, so I can cycle, but I can't run. So I still cycle two or 300 kilometers a week and yeah, love all that. And plenty of other stuff, play music and all sorts of good, loads of guitars hanging up here and whatnot.

So yeah,

Helen Wada: Amazing. And I'm brilliant to hear such a rich, rewarding life that, that continues in the roles that you play

Phil Smith: I hope so. I hope so.

Impact of COVID on Human Interaction

Helen Wada: And I guess, you know, where we're here, human wise, what does being human at work mean to you? Because that's. Going back to that kindness piece, you've been in it

Phil Smith: Yeah. I think the human things, you know, probably be going to become more and more relevant and more visible the more technologically engaged we get, which is kind of ironic really, because you know, I'll give you a good example of it. When COVID hit my, I remember [00:07:00] chatting to my son in law and he was having to do a load of meetings on zoom, Webex, whatever, you know, and he was saying it was interesting because yeah, When you had meetings, you know, prior to that time, and of course, you know, Cisco had been trying to get people to do video forever, but it was really like one week in March, 2020, boom, everybody suddenly got video.

It was all you need is a global pandemic and it's sorted, but,

Helen Wada: never put that in your project plan 

Phil Smith: no, definitely I wasn't in the project plan. Definitely. But but interestingly enough, what happened in that environment was that instead of now you having the issue where, you know, you have a transaction meeting and your suits are best.

Bevan Tucker, you meet the person, you have a meeting in an office somewhere, you walk away, and it's all kind of transactional. You do it online and suddenly, you know, the kids are running in or Amazon or someone comes to the door. So actually people became, oh, you've got a, you know, guitar hanging or a telescope or something behind you.[00:08:00] 

And so people go, oh, that's interesting. You're a guitarist or you're a cyclist or something. So you sort of somehow interest enough to spite the technology. You broke down a set of formal barriers, which weren't there. And actually with the technology, you, in a sense, almost became more human. These became more casual, these meetings, you know, we talk about family and people would regularly go, sorry, I need to go and get the door to answer this.

Or can I just go in and, you know, I need, I can't make that meeting because I've got to pick kids up, you know, all that sort of stuff. So there was an interesting example there where. The more we became technologically kind of engaged the more that actually the human part of us started to appear. And I think as we think about business, life, technology and everything going forward, we've really got to think.

And obviously the big discussion point at the moment, which I'm sure we'll talk more about, about AI and how, you know, the potential for, you know, it to supplement or replace or whatever the current environment. And [00:09:00] I think in that world, we've got to remember that we are all humans. So whether we want to do something with AI or not with AI, we kind of want human interaction.

And that, you know, some people want that in the form of being in rooms and shaking hands and doing whatever. Some want that in the ability to have conversations like we're having today. But we do want this kind of human engagement in some form. And I think, you know, in today's world, we've As many people now are in environments where they're not in offices every day, or they're not going through, certainly what I went through in my early years, you know, the humanity, the knowing about people, understanding them, recognizing the challenges they may or may not have is super important.

And I think certainly as a leader, You have to genuinely think about what are people, you know, what people feeling here and the whole kind of kindness thing is very much about thinking, are you really thinking about what the people are feeling in this? Because many people [00:10:00] put on a front for work and we'll just accept things.

So it's interesting. You know, it's definitely an interesting change,

Helen Wada: It really is interesting and it's interesting sort of the time that I set up this business actually, because I started thinking about it actually just prior to the pandemic. My husband was working in Asia for six months, just prior, and we literally got him back the day before lockdown.

But then we all went into, you know, the technology, we're all, you know, the humans behind the screen I felt that the barriers almost had come down to a certain, as you're talking about, you all of a sudden saw the people behind the screens, however, you know, of late, I'm starting to talk to people and actually, for me, there's now a bit more of a disconnection where We've almost seen the human side of people and now because we have got the remote work and because people are not necessarily connected in the offices all the time, there is that the loss of the just picking up the phone or the people need to formally make a meeting or conversation to actually make that connection.

You're missing some [00:11:00] of those water cooling moments. 

Phil Smith: It? That is an interesting issue because it's actually the opposite of what we used to talk about. Right. When we first introduced video back in about 2008, 2009, we used to, this was at Cisco, we used to talk to people about video allowing you to kind of take away the formality a little bit, because I'll give you an example in many organizations, particularly sales oriented organization, you have these, you'll know them, QBRs, you know, quarterly business

Helen Wada: yeah,

Phil Smith: Total dog and pony show, everybody putting loads of slides together, hundreds of graphs, all the backup in case somebody asks you a question, all that stuff.

Helen Wada: yeah.

Phil Smith: And that's interesting. But it was very formal and it was very expensive in times of, you know, energy and time and all that sort of stuff to do it when you started doing video as we did in Cisco and we started having more regular meetings, maybe once a month with people from all around the world or once a week, even.

In [00:12:00] which case you didn't need the big QBR. So actually there was a sort of level of informality came from it as a result of that. And as you say, but now this sort of perception is if I want to have a meeting, it's kind of like All right, Helen, I'm going to ring you. I've got 40 minutes. We've got a, you know, we'll call up.

What's the agenda? What are we going to do? And off you go. And because I'm, you know, I've got to get stuff done. Now, to a degree, some people always did that. There were some people who were very much like that in the real world, you know, but I think it's definitely, it's an interesting twist of the way human behavior adapts to these sort of environments.

Helen Wada: And it's that adapting in terms of what are we seeing? What are we, what are you being? How do we mix the human and the commercial element? 

Transition from Technical to Leadership Roles

Helen Wada: Cause what you just talked about there, you know, obviously leading the Cisco business, having, going from being a technical expert as you were, when you were coding and programming, moving into the sort of sales environment.

I'm just curious on that part initially, because [00:13:00] actually a lot of the people that I work with at the moment are. In professional services, you know, you grow up you train to be an expert in what you do. And we said, we talk a bit about AI, but actually some of the basics, the technical is going to be taken away from us.

So actually the skills that people are going to be needing are those skills where we are actually knitting things together and talking to people and looking at complex problems and things. And those are the skills that you need more as you're. Solving customer problems. I'm just curious about your journey there.

And when you look back, what are the skills that you drew upon as you went from that Coder to CEO effectively?

Phil Smith: Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, my brother is a salesman through and through, you know, he runs his own business and so on. And, you know, he used to always talk about, you know, life as a sale and all this, you know, because he was, he's just like, he's in the zone all the time.

You know, he's great. And, but when you actually, you know, kind of get down to it, In a sense, [00:14:00] you know, whether you call it a sale, but life is about relationships, you know, and certainly commercial life is about relationships and people and so on. Obviously, there's a transactional level of, you know, I want to buy this.

It costs this much and I'll do it. But you know, great business was never done in that way, was it? I mean, it was always done through people. Relationships, you know, building up a kind of understanding, a trust and so on. And all that's very human, you know, trust particularly. And that's obviously something when today's world, as we see the whole world of kind of fake news and, you know, the kind of end of truth and all this stuff that people talk about, it is important that you somehow find ways of getting to that.

And certainly in my world you know, as I came up through a kind of technical background, I think where I was always. More comfortable was in the sort of helping people understand things. And, you know, that may be a very technical thing, but in reality, it was probably much more of a bridge between it's technical, but this is how you [00:15:00] use it kind of thing.

This is what it means to you. And you know, I guess maybe my days of, you know, playing in bands and all that sort of stuff and performing was good for me because I was very comfortable standing up in front of people presenting and talking and. And sharing things and so on, but also, I think, to a degree, the point that you and I have talked about before, which is this kind of empathy and understanding of somebody else.

So if you're a techie guy, you know, you've got a good technical understanding and you just rabbit on a load of technical stuff. I mean, clearly, you're going to lose 90 percent of your audience to be one or two people are like, yes, it's great. I love all this. But the reality is most people will be lost for that.

So the job of a good technical person or a good, any person, to be honest, somebody talking about poetry, somebody talking about music is someone who can give you the kind of feeling, you know, they often say, you don't remember what people say or what they do. You remember how you make them feel. And I think somehow or another, you've got to get people to say.

Why does this mean something to [00:16:00] me? What am I really trying to get here? Am I trying to make the person excited by what they're doing? Am I trying to make them think, wow, I've had a load of problems and this is really gonna help me? Or is it, you know, about them making you helping them look good in front of their bosses and so on, but it's about people ultimately, you know, and it's about putting that sort of sense of whether it's technology or business or anything over to people in a way that it's digestible by them.

And I think as a technical person, you can be either a technical person who's just a technical person, the kind of classic, you know, sandals locked up in a cupboard downstairs kind of person. Or there's the technical person who is, you know, yes, someone who can really help you move through a set of problems, whether those be business.

But I think that passion about the way he describes things is important. I always remember you probably seen the movie um, Amadeus, you know, which was all about the life of Mozart. And the way that's done is clever because they've got the guy, his sort of arch [00:17:00] enemy or competitor, Salieri, kind of explaining his music and going. You know, he sort of hates the fact that he's doing this, but he's explaining and he talks, you know, just listen to how this, you know, sound comes in here and then melodies picked up. And because he explains it so actively you kind of get it completely, whether you're a classical music fan or Mozart fan or whatever.

And I think that's the trick of it and all these things is making the person go. Wow. I really kind of get that. 

The Importance of Human Connection in Business

Phil Smith: And so when you go through from a technical world and then into what we would describe as a commercial or sales world, I don't think you lose that part of it. It's just your approach to how you do those sorts of things.

If you haven't come from a technical background, I'll have a different way of kind of making that, that, you know, that bond. So,

Helen Wada: comes back to that. I was talking to somebody last week about this. It's the authenticity point. It's about how you bring your own energy. How do you bring your passion about what is the value? You know, we all have different values that we bring and an expertise. And I [00:18:00] think for me, one of those is actually acknowledging what those are for ourselves because sometimes we don't actually take the time.

I mean, goodness, I think about 25 year career in audit consulting, you name it, you know, you talk about PowerPoint presentations, the amount of hours that go into putting some words on a slide. Rather than thinking about how you want customers, colleagues to, to feel at the end of the conversation, what it is you want them to take away how you can bring to life what you want to get across, but in a way that they will understand.

And for me, that being human at work is. Taking a pause and taking a step back and saying, actually let the AI do the kind of the legwork on the content. And let's overlay that with, well, what does that actually really mean? Not just for the business, but for the person from a personal perspective, as well as a business perspective that you're talking to.

Phil Smith: No, I [00:19:00] mean, I completely agree because you know, the AI in that example you just gave is a perfect example of you not spending. 90 percent of the time polishing up PowerPoint and 10 percent of the time thinking of the people, but then the other way around, you know, we've spent a 9 percent of the time thinking about people and 10 percent of the time playing with just, you know, what it looks like, because, you know, we've definitely seen this kind of, I mean, if you say, you know, you're accounted by background.

So you think about, I, you, sorry,

Helen Wada: I joked with my husband about it, I'm the one, the accountant that's kind of moved as far away as possible, he's like, you never look at your bank statements,

Phil Smith: but the interesting thing about that is if you think of the generation before you have accountants who probably said no, you really need to get a ledger and you need to add all the numbers up. And, you know, you guys, you use spreadsheets, you don't really understand this. Whereas, you know, your generation would come in and go, why would I possibly want to go and add all that up manually when I've got a spreadsheet?

But, you know, you would see that people might have put the value on the kind of [00:20:00] beautifulness of your, you know, your script and all that sort of stuff in the past, the tidiness of the way that you presented it. So I think that when we accept that technology and tools make us better able to engage as human beings, less time adding stuff up.

I had more time talking to people about what things mean and so on. I think it's really powerful. And, you know, in PCs or another example, when that happened, I remember when the PC first came along and, you know, everybody, you know, I was still playing around with them in my, Well, that was in at the time.

And then of course, windows came around and the big thing that really persuaded everybody to go was you've got a free game of solitaire on it and everybody's like, yeah, this is great. I can play, you know, three dimension. And suddenly everybody was using these computers, but in reality, you also had spreadsheets, word processors, all that stuff that made your life a lot easier than sitting, you know, writing it all out full, you know, hand, you know, hand drawn and full and.

So, so, yeah, I think technology, we'd really do [00:21:00] need to think about it as a way of potentially helping us to be more human at work. And I, you know, I agree with you. I think that could be more important.

Helen Wada: Yeah. And coming back to the sales point, cause I think that is something that we've talked about before and certainly within the UK and, you know, we can talk about how it is other side, the other side of the pond. Whereas, but sales per se, and I sit with a lot of people that I talked to, it has a negative connotation almost, you know, it's still in 2025.

And no matter what we say, talk about relationships, you know, it's There's still particularly amongst a lot of, whether you're in IT technology, whether you're a lawyer, whether you're an accountant, whatever, there's a fear of selling. There's something that's not, you know, but actually for me, it's part and parcel of doing business in today's world.

I'm just curious to get your

Phil Smith: Yeah, I think it's a very interesting point, isn't it? Because. To your point, without going into the detail, but if you say you're in [00:22:00] sales in the U. S., people are thinking, yeah, it's good you're in sales, you know, it's kind of prestige sort of thing. And, you know, there's true of a lot of things in America, they're good at sort of giving prestige to almost any occupation, whether you're a waitress or an engineer or a salesperson.

In the UK, the concept of sales has been sort of hijacked a little bit by You know, double glazing sales, cavity wall insulation, cold callers, et cetera, where people have this negative connotation. And I think it's a lot to do with, and we have this issue in skills generally in the UK, and as you know, I'm very involved in the world of skills.

Is that if you ask someone, you know, if you, let's imagine you've got a talented 16, 17 year old girl who's good at maths and, you know, maybe some sciences and so on as well. And she goes to her parents and she's having this conversation, let alone her careers advisor at school and says, what do you think I should do?

And they go, you're really good. You should be a doctor or a lawyer [00:23:00] or an accountant. They would rarely say you should be an engineer or you should be a salesperson. But you and I know how, and the people probably earning most money Transcribed The people who have got maybe the longest career paths are probably people who have got sales background of some sort, because, you know, to your point about consulting, you're there selling all the time.

Any product, any business is about selling the business, selling the product ultimately. And to people and it's difficult. I mean, I had a really interesting example of this about a year or so before I stepped down from Cisco, where we decided to have a week. We did work experience for kids at Cisco, and we decided to have 40.

Young women from the schools around the area near Cisco. And Feltham. So, you know, a bunch of varied schools around there. Anyway we brought them all into the office and they had a week of work experience. There was 40 of them. 

Starting the Day as Chief Exec

Phil Smith: So I went down as the chief exec in the [00:24:00] morning. It was like, Hey, everybody, welcome.

Great to have you here. And, you know, I'm, they're all a bit nervous and sheepish and so on. They didn't know, they knew their friends, but they didn't know themselves. So I say, how would I like to work in technology? And, you know, there was like, you know, a teacher pushing somebody's arm up, going, stick your hand up, you're not, you know, don't want to embarrass us here.

So, you know, one or two, so I'll put their hands up. So I said, okay, well, you know, I have a good week, you know, you've got a great week going, signed up. So they all then went off for the week and they went and they met the marketing people and they went into technology and he went to sales and all this sort of stuff, and they saw everything.

The Impact of Exposure

Phil Smith: Of a company that they knew nothing about basically they have no idea just big shiny building You know, they could see it from the school and whatnot So I went down the friday morning and I was like, they're all buzzing, you know They all know each other by this time and it's all noisy and i'm like, hey morning everybody How are you doing?

And I said how many of you would like to work for cisco and literally 40 hands went up We'd love to work here. It's amazing You know people are really good and it's really exciting and there's [00:25:00] lots of different things to do So in other words the lesson you really learn from that is that If you're someone outside of that industry, and there are lots of other examples of this in other industries, but if you're outside of that industry.

You know, your careers teacher is not going to learn about Cisco. Your parents are not going to learn anything about Cisco. They're not going to learn about technology as far as they are concerned. 

Changing Perceptions of Technology Careers

Phil Smith: Technology means my some guy sitting in a basement coding or doing whatever. That's not what it's about is, you know, there's so much more about the whole kind of sales and customer engagement, customer support, and all that sort of stuff, and these, all that, and their parents were there as well.

We brought the parents along and. It was unbelievable the effect and, you know, they're going, I want to work here. I want to come back and do, you know, I want apprenticeship here. I want to do whatever, whereas, you know, if you hadn't had that intervention, chances are most of them would have been recommended by their parents to go and be doctors or whatever.

And I think that's [00:26:00] a huge part of what we need to do from the kind of, you know, whether it be reputational perspective around sales. 

The Role of Sales in Business

Phil Smith: We have to show people that. And sales is probably the wrong word. It's like you said, it's kind of commercial or whatever, because sales has been sort of tarnished by the, you know, the sales that people see in a day to day basis. To say this is about business. It's about, you know, what does you do in a business and how I know everybody in every company, even a technology companies, either technologies or a salesperson of marketing people. There's, you know, finance people. There's whatever, you know, there's loads of people who work for these companies.

So I think it is a really difficult issue that I'm not sure whether we, you know, would try to rebrand it or whatever, or we just have to give people much more people, much more exposure to what it really means. And role models, you know, Helen Warren saying, you know, she made a great commercial career in her life by starting off and maybe studying accountancy and do [00:27:00] whatever else, but actually the job she's doing now is a job I'd love to do.

Some young women looking at you saying. So how do I get there? You know, what's my path to that? That's the important thing I think.

Helen Wada: And I think that's really fascinating because it's actually, it's starting at the roots in terms of what are the skills going back to your point around skills? And I think where my passion comes from, cause let's face it. I never wanted to be in sales. If we're going to call it sales, right?

I started my corporate career with Arthur Anderson. That was you. And I remember it. Some of the listeners won't, but. And I left there purposely because I looked up, I looked at the senior partners and direct and thought, Oh, I don't want to sell. I don't like, whereas

Phil Smith: they're all men probably.

Helen Wada: yeah, most of them actually, there was one wonderful woman that actually developed my career and lady called Helen Patton, if she's ever listening was super for me.

But. 

Integrating Coaching Skills

Helen Wada: But what I learned, because you and I met when I was a global client director at KPMG, was the skills that I had when I was building relationships with third [00:28:00] parties and within the business, were actually the same skills that I was using As an executive coach, because by then I'd had my two children, I was trained to be an executive coach and people would say to me, well, why are you good at what you do?

And I said, I don't really know why I'm good at what I do. I just, you know, enjoy people and relationships and I unpicked it. And for me. It is maybe a bit of a rebrand because for me, it's that integration of coaching skills, the listening, the questioning, the curiosity about others, it's knitting things together, is absolutely the same whether you're coaching an individual or whether you're trying to understand what the customer needs are to be able to offer insight, to be able to take forward solutions, to build trust, that psychological safety.

And for me, when I look at organizations for the most part. It's one or the other, it's like, it's a bit like, you know, you get out there, you're sales minded you hell for leather going to go and win that [00:29:00] work, or we invest in a bit of a sort of leadership development or something like that.

Whereas actually for me, it's about holistically looking at what are the skills? Cause if you want, and I've got bookshelves of numerous, to sell is human, you've got the human at work. It's not that dissimilar.

Phil Smith: Yeah. I

Helen Wada: To the skills that we need to be kind leaders in the workplace, those skills that you had and were recognized for back in 2018, that, you know, thinking about how you brought teams up, how you think about others.

It's for

Phil Smith: It's really interesting because therein lies a dichotomy, doesn't it? Because we all know that in industry generally, in business, certainly in technology, we've got a real challenge with, The number of women who are involved in it, and yet the things you just described about, you know, empathy, listening, collaboration, you know, for many women, it's not universal for men or for women, but for many women are very natural [00:30:00] skills.

You know, women are much better at collaborating about listening about, you know, taking guidance from others, etc. As opposed to many men. And yet, you know, if you try to persuade many women that the kind of job you described, whether it be a sales job or a commercial job, whatever you want to call it. Is the job for them right now, and that's not really what I want to do, you know, I don't really see me fitting into that.

That's a sort of pushy blah, blah, blah, whereas actually that whole thing about just being a human being who empathizes with others, who listens, who finds things in others that you know that you can't find. I mean, it's really powerful, you know, and some of the certainly in my career, you know. You know, some of the people I've worked with, including yourself, you know, who are best at the kind of joining things up and main things are often women, because it's just, it's a more natural sort of posture to take.

Whereas a lot of men it's a bit like, this is how I do it. And I'm, you know, I'm yeah, [00:31:00] whatever, you know, I mean, overcharacterized on both sides,

Helen Wada: yeah,

Phil Smith: but you get the point, you know, it's interesting.

Coaching in the Workplace

Helen Wada: And for me, I guess, you know, this again, I'm overlaying the coaching piece, but actually that's where I do wholeheartedly believe that coaching has a bigger role to play in the workplace than it's necessarily given credit for. I mean, I would, I will openly admit that it took me longer to step out on my own and start this sort of second career for what it's worth.

Yeah. Because actually coaching didn't, doesn't have a great name in the work. You know, again I generalized for effect, but it was a coach, you know, Tom Dickle Harry is a coach. There were courses out there that you can be a coach in two days. So, but, you know, I've got four or 500 plus hours of training experience because there's a skillset within it.

And. I honestly believe that actually, if we were to apply a commercial lens to those skills that we need to say, look, this is what we need. These are the skills that we need to be [00:32:00] commercially successful, particularly in a world where technology is going to take away that initial grunt work piece, right?

Helen Wada: We need people that are going to be able to connect, communicate, challenge, empathize, that becomes paramount from a commercial perspective. Guess what? If we want to build human centered organizations, it's the same skill set. And if we put the two together, for me, that's where the magic could potentially happen is no longer seen as one or the other.

That's where the human wise really, I get excited because I

Phil Smith: Yeah. And you're right. I mean, if you think about coaching. You know, coaching yourselves is about coaching a person to understand a particular perspective, isn't it? You're gradually Not persuading them, necessarily, but guiding them, helping them get to an understanding. Now, they may not come to that understanding, decide ultimately not to do it, but ultimately that skill of understanding what they need, understanding what you need, understanding what, I mean, that's a [00:33:00] coaching discussion, but you know, by another name, you might call it a sales discussion or a commercial discussion, you know?

Interesting.

Helen Wada: and it's keeping the choice that the other powerful thing I'm going to throw in there and add on top of that is the choice remains with you. So as a coach. You know, you may have experienced coaching, but the coach is not making decisions for you. All of us know, you know, come back to the old days of salesman forcing something onto you.

None of us like to be forced onto whether we're going to the shop and buying something or whether we're engaging with a supplier in an organization to support us with a project. None of us like being told what to do. We want to make our own minds up. And so, therefore, Putting the other person at the heart of that conversation so that they can make the choice, you coming back to what you were saying earlier, you know, the passion about how you bring your insight, your experience in a human way, and then they can feel, Oh, is that somebody I want to work with?

More than [00:34:00] likely you it's about putting yourself out there and have it and taking that step in that confidence to say. What am I going to do that's going to be brave today? It might be a bit out of my comfort zone, but do you know what? Once I've done it once, I can do it again.

Phil Smith: yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, I agree. So it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? And I think, you know, as you say, it's one of those things where if you were, we own, I mean, you know, whatever we say, we know that sales, I mean, if you look at Cisco is a great example, you know, Cisco is, you know, probably one of the best sales forces in the world and, but, and it has amazing products, but it doesn't always have the best products.

It has really good products. And it has, maybe sometimes it's got the best products, but often it's not to do with. Yeah. The fact that it's got those, it's the sort of environment of the sales people and sales organizations put around you to make you feel comfortable. Your choice of solving your problem can be solved by Cisco better than someone else.

And my [00:35:00] brother, my other brother, this is not that one, but the one who has another

Helen Wada: got a great family, Phil. You've

Phil Smith: actually, they're all good for examples. My brother who lives in America, he's a. He's a scientist by a physicist, you know, who does fiber optics stuff and lasers and things. And he, you know, he worked in very early days and STL and Harlow and all this stuff.

All interesting. But anyway, he went to us and got involved in a startup and stuff. But, you know, he now in recent years has worked for DARPA. I've done a lot of work for DARPA. And while I was at Cisco, you know, we had obviously switching and routing and wireless and all that security and things. And he would ring me up every month to go, I've just invented this.

Amazing new Wi Fi replacement technology. It's going to blow you guys out of the water. And that's it. You know, Cisco is toast. We've got this new technology. I like, you know, David, I don't think that's all it needs. You don't just need techno. There's plenty of good technologies around. What you need to do is.

Make them attractive to customers, sell them, give people, solve people's problems, not just go, Oh, we've got great technology there [00:36:00] for the whole of the, you know, 50 billion in Cisco revenue is gone because I've invented this new thing tomorrow. It doesn't work like that, you know, so, but it was funny, but he always, you know, way many times over the years, he would write me up and go, I've just this thing.

It's amazing. You guys have nowhere near it, you know. And it's going to be the best ever. And so Cisco is a good example of that. You know, we had a really strong sales culture, the organization which people, you know, wanted once they're in, wanted to be part of, and we're very persuaded by. But if you do your point earlier on, if you'd said it's a sales organization, the young graduates are never joining, we'd be like, yeah, I thought if I really want to join the sales, I want to join a consulting organization, but actually, you know, that's what a good sales organization is one that consults with customers and coaches them and so on.

So, yeah, it's very interesting perception and I don't know whether, I don't know what the easy solution is, but there's certainly. A lot to do with, as we discussed before, about letting people understand what business is really about.[00:37:00] 

Helen Wada: Yeah.

Phil Smith: Yeah, it's not about, it's not about, you know, some black and white thing.

It's all shades of grey and all sorts of exciting jobs and amazing things you can do, you know, so, yeah.

Helen Wada: Everything in between.

Phil Smith: And everything in

Helen Wada: I'm conscious of time. We could chat for hours, but I know our listeners kind of only have relatively short

Phil Smith: Yeah, exactly,

Helen Wada: then, you know. They're not training for triathlons or 300km cycles like you are. We've covered so much ground, Phil, and it's super to have you on the show.

Helen Wada: If there was one, one or two sort of top tips for the listeners, as you think about, you know, careers moving forward, working in inverted commas, sales or relationship what would your advice be to people listening to the show?

Phil Smith: Well, I think the, I mean, it's advice I'm sure you've heard from other people, but don't, you know, there's obviously this sense of, you know, giving yourself a bit of a challenge. You said it earlier on, sometimes doing something [00:38:00] where you come in and think, oh my god, I have no bloody idea at all what I'm doing now.

Helen Wada: Yeah,

Phil Smith: If I did a TED Talk about you A while ago on, I think I called it the challenge of three and it was basically comparing my triathlon. Kind of like activities would be in a CEO and it was very interesting that same model of like standing in front of, you know, looking out to the lake about to dive in and do a triathlon and the first morning arriving as chief exec of Cisco in the UK now I'm thinking, I have no idea what I'm doing here, you know, what am I doing?

Why am I doing this? You know, I don't fit in here as a sort of classic imposter syndrome thing. And I think a lot of the time, you know, challenging yourself. And I think to the point you've made a couple of times, not thinking about this as sales and equating it to cold calling a load of people on the phone and try to persuade them to buy insurance.

Think about this as relationships and how good, and if you're someone You know, man or [00:39:00] woman, you know, older, young, who's good at kind of chatting to people and working out what they do and don't do and so on, you know, you're probably going to be pretty reasonable at sales, you know, and, you know, there's disciplines behind it and things you can learn, but, you know, basically, hey.

You know, challenge yourself. So that's definitely one thing I would say that, you know, all of us have probably got to places where we, you know, both scared and or, you know, don't know what we're doing. That's sort of a good thing in a way, you know, to get to that position where you really feel it's challenging you in a way.

I mean, the other thing, maybe to come back to your whole theme, you know. Yeah. Of this is that, you know, people are people, you know, people want to talk to people. People want to engage with people. Now, some people are obviously not people with, you know, I mean, they're

Helen Wada: Yeah,

Phil Smith: but ultimately we are all human beings.

So even that person who's not a people person. Still wants to be told things that help them and make them more successful and [00:40:00] make them more comfortable and make them more you know, successful in their life or their business. So, so I think the great thing about good. Salespeople and good people in the commercial world is that they kind of think about that.

They think about, you know, how other people will you know, we'll think about things. And I think, you know, the way to do that a lot of the time is just to ask people questions. And that's why you're coaching things so important as well. You know, a number of times, I don't know how often it happens to you, but you go to a dinner or something and you spend your evening asking the person about you, what do you do?

How many kids you got? And quite often you'll find people, they ask you zero questions back. Zero. They don't even say, you know, where do you live? Are you married? I mean, you just don't. And it's like, really? Why would you not ask that? Don't you, aren't you interested in that? Or is it you're so self obsessed that you can't think about someone else?

Or maybe you're nervous. Maybe you're a nervous person. You don't have the confidence to do it, but, you know, truthfully, I think good [00:41:00] salespeople and good people who are good leaders, I think, are people who you use the word curious, who are a bit curious about whatever they're curious about, and often that's about people, you know, am I curious, am I interested in that person and what they're doing and what their life is and whether I've got similarities or commonalities or whatever with them.

You know, that's back to a bit about the video conference and right at the beginning, you know, maybe that helps a little bit. You see the fact that there's a telescope at the back or there's a guitar over there or something, you know, that's interesting.

Helen Wada: it's not a stimulus and it's as if you've set up the end of it. And I know we didn't plan it like that, but I always say a good coach loves a good question Phil. And so, I'm going to ask you to leave us with a question, leave the listeners with a question for them to reflect on because I am profoundly believer in.

You know, having something to think about a question does stimulate a different piece of thought in, in the mind. So if there was one question that you would leave with the listeners today, what would it be for them to reflect on after the conversation you and I've just [00:42:00] had?

Phil Smith: Yeah, the question I used to often think about was what would I do next after the next thing? So I don't mean, you know, so if you're going to do the next thing, which kind of becomes obvious to people, you know, I want to go into a different career. I want to get promoted or whatever. But the question is, what are you going to do after that?

What, why are you doing that? And what's the choice? And where does it take you next? And I think thinking about the thing after the thing you're thinking about can be quite a useful thing to do. Because people get kind of obsessed with the next thing. I've got to prepare myself to be, to retire or to whatever.

So, okay, what are you actually going to do with that? What are you going to do with it? And how are you going to? So I think thinking about the thing after the thing you're thinking about is quite a powerful thing to do. So think about that and think about how you. Would, you know, take that. And I'm not saying you have your life planned out because no, not many people do, but just thinking about, you know, I'm, I want to be boss bulky.

So you want to be boss, but what do you want to do with [00:43:00] being boss? And what are you going to do after that? You know, that's definitely worth thinking about sometimes. I think,

Helen Wada: Yeah. Comes back to knowing yourself, knowing your purpose. What do you enjoy, right?

Phil Smith: what do you enjoy? Yeah.

Helen Wada: what do you enjoy? How are you, who are you going to have fun? Who are you going to collaborate with? 

Phil Smith: I agree. I agree.

Helen Wada: Awesome. It has been an absolute pleasure. Time is up and over, but been a wonderful conversation.

Thank you for joining me. And look forward to seeing you again soon.

Phil Smith: Yeah, absolutely. Look forward to round two at some point.

Helen Wada: And the book that's, everybody's going to be bored by the book by the end of 25, but the book is coming. So,

Phil Smith: Excellent. Look forward to it.

Helen Wada: into it. Thanks a lot, Phil. Take care. All the

Phil Smith: Take care. Bye. Bye.

Helen Wada: bye. Bye bye. [00:44:00] 

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