Human Wise

Ep20: Leadership, Coaching, and Thriving Amidst Adversity with Jamie Ward

• Helen Wada • Season 2 • Episode 20

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Welcome to Human Wise, the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work.

With host Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage, each episode will explore what being human at work looks like across a wide range of industries, from people in senior management to those on the ground.

In this episode of HumanWISE, Helen is joined by Jamie Ward, Head of Talent and Learning at Channel 4, to discuss the impact of coaching in the workplace. 

They delve into the importance of kindness, the power of supportive relationships, and the significant performance improvements linked to quality coaching. 

Jamie shares his experiences of implementing a coaching culture at Channel 4 and his personal journey of adjusting to blindness. Their conversation highlights the value of putting others' perspectives at the forefront and fostering better dialogue to drive business success.

Topics Discussed:

  • Key Elements of Effective Coaching
  • Kindness and Inclusivity in the Workplace
  • Challenges and Successes of Implementing Coaching Programs
  • Application of Coaching Skills in Management
  • Effective Manager-Employee Interactions

View Extended Shownotes here:

About Jamie Ward:

Follow Jamie on Linkedin

Jamie Ward has a diverse work experience spanning multiple industries. They are currently the Head of Learning and Development at Channel 4 starting in February 2021. Prior to this, Jamie worked as a Non-Executive Director and Board Member at FMLM Applied Ltd starting in 2019. In 2020, Jamie held the role of Interim Organization Development Lead at DS Smith, where they focused on talent management, diversity and inclusion, and performance management. From 2014 to 2020, Jamie was the Global Head of Organization Development at BBC Studios Ltd, leading the transformation of the organization and implementing new frameworks and approaches. They have also held significant leadership roles at PA Consulting, including Managing Consultant, where they worked on various HR projects and supported talent management at well-known companies. Before transitioning to HR roles, Jamie held commercial roles at Rio Tinto and De La Rue.

Jamie Ward holds a PhD in Organisational Behaviour from Imperial College London, which was obtained between 2000 and 2004. Prior to that, Jamie obtained an MBA in Business Administration from the same institution, completing it from 1997 to 1999. Jamie also holds a BA in Modern Languages from the University of Leeds, earned from 1982 to 1986. Additionally, Jamie has obtained several certifications including EQ-i 2.0 Certified from EITC in 2019, FCIPD from CIPD in 2018, Tetramap Facilitator from TetraMap UK in 2016, Hogan Accreditation from Hogan.

Further links to follow:

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Ep20: Leadership, Coaching, and Thriving Amidst Adversity with Jamie Ward

Helen Wada: [00:00:00] Welcome to HumanWISE, a podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work. Hosted by me, Helen Wada executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage. I'm thrilled to be on this journey with you, learning what it really means to be human in business, one conversation at a time.

Introduction and Guest Welcome

Helen Wada: And welcome. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of human wise the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work. And there's nobody better to have on the show today than Jamie Ward, head of talent and learning at channel four. Jamie, welcome to the show.

Jamie Ward: Thank you very much, Helen. That's a lovely introduction and I'm very excited to be here with you.

The Power of Coaching

Helen Wada: It's wonderful to, have you here and the [00:01:00] relationship where we've been working together now for a number of years and We connected really over the power of coaching and you were somebody that saw the value of coaching in, an organization and what it means for people, but also the importance to, the business as well.

And so delighted that you're here and talking about being human.

Jamie Ward: Yes, thank you. Yeah, we did connect over the power of coaching and and I do, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk more about it over the next few minutes altogether. I really do think coaching is one of the most important learning interventions we can have in the, workplace, so I've been really excited to be involved in developing it at Channel four television.

Helen Wada: no, it's amazing. 

Being Human at Work

Helen Wada: And it's a great story as we kick off the show, the question that I've been asking all the guests that come on is what does being human at work mean to you? , 

Jamie Ward: I think the most important thing I think, [00:02:00] One can aspire to be at work is to be kind. And, I, started thinking thinking this a few years ago, even before it became a meme on social media, hashtag kind, be kind.

And I think it's, because I sort of developed this idea that, What are, you really going to be proud of you know, at the end of your career? What are you really going to be, these are questions I was asking myself, by the way, rather than asking you, Helen, but what are you really going to be proud of at the end of your career?

What are you going to regret at the end of your career? 

Kindness and Relationships

Jamie Ward: And I decided really above all, above everything else, above all that I would regret not being kind because I think relationships at work are the most important things we can develop. I think conversations are the most powerful things these days in getting work done in [00:03:00] the types of jobs that we do.

And I think we need good relation, good solid relationships to do that. to have those conversations and to develop those conversations, we need to be kind. And, in terms of building those relationships, the one thing I would, I think I would regret is not being kind. And so that's been a sort of mantra for me ever since I aspire to that.

I don't always achieve it, but I like to think I achieve it most of the time.

Helen Wada: I think you're right. And I love the fact that it's sort of that be kind before the hashtag be kind because it has become a little bit of a mantra, you know, we talk about social media and so forth. But actually, you know, one of the reasons that I'm here with human wise and the podcast is.

Actually, there are still many instances where unfortunately the workplaces are not as kind as we might want them to be. And so it's about, you know, hopefully [00:04:00] over the course of this conversation, we will be drawing out, you know, what does work? Well, what happens when people are kind? What are the small tweaks that we can be doing that not only help individuals, but also help the businesses as well?

And I think that's something can explore later.

Jamie Ward: that's, right. And just sorry to interrupt. I think I think it is a virtue of circle. I think it builds on itself. And so in those places that are, that's not so kind, I think we can, reach in and make, a small difference. And I also think that it, does have a relationship to performance.

Coaching and Performance

Jamie Ward: And I think we're going to go on to talk about that a bit later, maybe, but but I think there is there is a relationship between, definitely between. good quality coaching and performance. And I think there is also a relationship between good solid relationships and performance.

Helen Wada: Tell me, a little bit more about that. We can, dive in now. Let's 

Jamie Ward: Well, 

Helen Wada: dive in straight away. Tell me a little bit more about your thoughts on that.

Channel 4's Coaching Program

Jamie Ward: it's [00:05:00] an interesting relationship because, and it's a discussion we've been having at Channel 4, you know, why actually are we doing coaching? Why have we built a coaching program? And you know, I'll happily talk more about them about the program. We on, on, on the surface level, we're supporting people be their best selves at work.

We're providing support maybe in moments where people need it. We're providing support to people who need maybe some adjustments at work. We're also providing support to people as they move from one level to another in that sort of mid career sort of transition. And then we're also providing coaching support to maybe execs at the top of their game but, you know, they just need that sounding board because that's a lonely place to be.

So lots of different sort of support areas. But fundamentally, when it comes down to it, We we do [00:06:00] have to make money Channel 4 is a not for profit in that we channel all our money into program making, and but in order to make really great quality programs, and in order to fulfill our remit, which is creating change through entertainment and representing unheard voices, we have to bring in revenue.

Ultimately and getting people to perform at their best is part of as part of that, as part of bringing in revenue into the organization.

Helen Wada: It's an interesting conundrum, isn't it? I was talking to another head of talent and learning actually last week. 

Investing in Coaching

Helen Wada: And we were talking about, you know, The acknowledgement that the benefit that coaching can bring, but notwithstanding that, there is still a financial pressure when you're talking about having the conversations with an executive board that are looking at the investment that you're making.

[00:07:00] How, do you justify that? Because it's a, as you say, it's having that right conversation and clearly your executive team believe in this so much but, others are. are less able to, you know, commit to the investment coaching is because it's not just a immediate benefit. It's a long term investment.

Jamie Ward: It is a long term investment, and I think it does depend where the organization is on its development cycle. So, you know, there is there is no doubt that the broadcast sector in general is going through a difficult period. Advertisers currently are advertising a little bit less than they usually do.

Channel 4 is doing well within that difficult context. We're also reshaping our business to become the UK's first publicly owned streaming business. And and so, you know, you do have to recognize [00:08:00] that, learning interventions are an investment for the long term. It's all. Variable spend, right?

And if you're in crisis you know you can, cut that kind of spending. My view is that's a mistake in that you know, organizations that perform really well in the long term are organizations that learn and develop and invest in learning interventions. We need to do that wisely.

And we have. Demonstrated where we've, where we've increased performance through those interventions. So I know that, you know, we were, going to talk about the link between sort of coaching and, that sort of investment. And, we do actually track the spending and the payback, if you like, from coaching our [00:09:00] performance model, like many companies is to use managers subjective feedback to to, look at individual performance.

But we've linked it to coaching intervention. So we get feedback from the manager prior, during and after, and also six months after coaching intervention. And we do really well on satisfaction. We have over 90 percent satisfaction, which you would expect from coaching intervention. But what you don't expect, because these figures aren't widely reported, is that we also have an 80%, improvement.

So where managers have observed really an improvement in performance. So that's 80 percent of interventions. Now, I mean, if you were to flip a coin, obviously, you know, odds are 50 50. If you were, I don't know, to play the lottery, say, and the odds were 50 50, you would certainly play the lottery if you said, Oh, you know, return [00:10:00] on investment is a 50 50 chance you'd play it, right?

But if the odds were 80%, you'd definitely play it. I mean that's not chance anymore. That's not flipping a coin. That is real investment territory. So that's, I think, why one of the reasons why we do it, why the exec has got confidence in, our investment in this area. Yeah. is that we can demonstrate the results.

Helen Wada: Yeah. And, I see it myself as a coach in terms of that. It's the behavior shift. that changes with coaching. So it's, you know, a lot of times I think we find people, you know, people that I've worked with, they sort of know what to do. They know, you know, the theory they might've read a book or they might've been on a training program or something.

So there's a knowledge there about what they might need to do differently, but it's actually fundamentally shifting those behaviors to Not just doing something different, but I think in this particularly as you, you go up the [00:11:00] ladder from a seniority perspective is about being different and about how people can hold themselves more.

How are they comfortable saying no to things they may have done before that they don't need to do now as they elevate their position? That importance of conversation you were talking about at the outset where, you know, conversations make. Organizations go round, right? And

The more that we are able to have better conversations with clear agendas, clear decision points, clear actions at the end of it, people know what they're after, the more efficient you'll be.

And actually the more effective you'll be as an organization, which leans itself back to that whole performance culture, but in a, coaching style, if that makes sense.

Jamie Ward: That's absolutely right. And you're absolutely right that the more senior you get, it's about how you do it, not just what you do. And, you know, operating at a higher, [00:12:00] level for managers, you know, that mid career transition point, that jumping off point for many people mid career in launching their career to even higher levels, is very often that understanding that it's not any more, it's not about doing what you do well, just more of it.

It's, it's moving the dial on how you do it what kind of conversations you have and really moving the dial on those behaviors, the kind of the quality of those senior level conversations you have, how inclusive you are as a leader, how good your listening skills are. whether you really deeply listen to to, to your team, to your stakeholders, how you navigate through change is so important these days and how you help others and your team navigate through those, changing situations.

You know, how you include people is is so important. [00:13:00] And And then I think it's it goes beyond those those, that technical capability to really being innovative, which is our, lifeblood and also making great quality decisions and getting things done. So, yeah, it's all about, I think at the higher level, it's all about sort of and behaviors and, The fact that, you know it's great performance is kind of taken as read at that level.

Helen Wada: Yeah. 

Jamie Ward: You know you're, going to be able to do your job, you're going to be able to do to perform, but it's about how you do this as well.

Coaching Culture and Diversity

Helen Wada: Yeah, I think you're right there and it's about that, it's about that how, but actually that leads me on to something in terms of, you know, we're talking here about investing in, coaches to provide support to individuals within the business. But actually there's, a theme around coaching culture that has been talked about that, you know, where [00:14:00] we bringing in more of the skills that a coach has.

to operate in a way that is kind, that is human in the workplace. And I'm just curious about how you see that has percolated through what you do and maybe some of the challenges and things that have worked well with that.

Jamie Ward: so, I think, as I mentioned earlier, I think, it is, a virtuous circle, so it builds on itself. And I think, you know, starting from that as a principle goes through all the various different stages of, coaching. And this goes through actually working as a, coach myself, but also you know, selecting and working through through, coaches that we, you know, select to to, work with us at Channel 4.

So for the, coaching process [00:15:00] itself. I think you know, sticking to rigidly to a process, I think when you are coaching yourself is can, can be tricky sometimes, but I think if you have good strong underlying principles of kindness and human-centered approach, I think that can help lead you through those stages, those essential stages of contracting.

Potentially goal setting and so on. I think sticking to, those stages to rigidly can can feel awkward. But I think if you, stick if you follow a sort of more principled way, it can make it easier. And then I think in working with with a team of coaches, that we select externally, We try and balance getting a good diversity on our coach bench. So we get lots of different kinds of people. But using those sort of principles as a [00:16:00] foundation. I meet everybody, just to ensure that we get you know that, that, sort of consistency of, principled approach. But yeah, but within a diversity, cause we do want different people. We have lots of different types of coaching that we want, and we want people to be able to respond to that.

So we have, you know, men and women, we have lots of protective characteristics, you know, we have coaches who are disabled, ethnically diverse, neurodiverse, or an understanding of those things, a real understanding of those things. Yes, but underpinning all of that is that sort of really human centered approach.

Helen Wada: Yeah, no, I love it. And you talked about yourself being a coach and obviously the skills and qualities that you have as a coach within the business. I'm curious if you were to think about the skills that you have as a coach, and how do you use those in your day to day job? So when you're not coaching with your teams, but how do you draw on those skills that you've [00:17:00] got as a, coach, a skilled coach in practice?

Jamie Ward: Gosh, that's such an interesting question because we are, of course, trying as well at Channel 4 to introduce more of a coaching culture amongst our managers. So as well as building an internal coaching team and working with a bench of executive coaches as well. We like managers to acquire those skills of coaches because it makes them better managers.

How do I incorporate it into my own practice? I guess, I guess first and foremost I would say over the years I've learned that less is more, that, as, a manager and with a good team, which I'm very glad to say I've got a great team here at Channel 4, and Randy. Listening is is a much better way of managing.

So, there's there's a great, there's a great book that I read [00:18:00] a while ago, called Say Less and Ask More, which was about using coaching TA techniques in, in, in in management. And, hope you don't mind me introducing a reference there, but 

Helen Wada: Absolutely not. No, 

Jamie Ward: um, 

Helen Wada: a book. I'm, filling my bookshelf as, you, as I mentioned to you, I'm actually on my own journey of crafting my own book. And so I, I've got a plethora of books on the bookshelf. So always good to have another title and

Jamie Ward: oh, great. When's your book coming out?

Helen Wada: 26 

Jamie Ward: Right. I'll 

Helen Wada: written, but not much more.

I'm on the way though, Jamie. So 

Jamie Ward: be looking out for that. So yes, so I think less is more. I think asking more questions and listening, and helping people find the result themselves. And and I think sort of you know, when it comes to performance, I think also one of the things I've learned is, as, as much as is [00:19:00] possible being patient and looking for. the areas in which people can improve their performance and areas in which they can sort of agree adjustments if they need it. Because very often, you know, people want to do the right thing. People want to perform. Who doesn't want to perform highly? And the reason people don't is, you know, very often there's a reason behind that.

And I think as a manager, I think maybe in the past, I was too anxious to sort of, force high performance. And of course you can't do that. 

Helen Wada: I 

Jamie Ward: people towards it. And you can look to take away barriers. And so I think I'm now concentrating on those, two things, those two latter things rather than the former.

Personal Story: Overcoming Blindness

Helen Wada: think that's really interesting and that it's about getting under the skin of what matters to the other people and when we open this conversation we talked about and you talked about you know looking at things from another [00:20:00] person's viewpoint and being inclusive and I think maybe that takes us on naturally to maybe a bit of your personal story Jamie and Where you've come from over the last sort of year or two and how that's shaped and influenced your view of the world and what we're doing about being human at work,

Jamie Ward: Yeah, sure. So I can, certainly tell you my story. And so probably it's worth starting with the fact for listeners that I'm blind. And I lost my sight probably about two years ago now. So, it was, actually gosh, the dates are sort of seared on my memory.

The 1st of April, 2022, I went for a checkup for a different reason. And the optometrist said, Oh yeah, a little change in prescription there. And actually, as things turned out it was neither a change in prescription nor was it an April Fool's joke. It was it [00:21:00] was I was actually diagnosed with a genetic condition called Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy, which is a bit of a mouthful.

Helen Wada: That is, about, I remember when you first told me Jamie, and I was like, I'm not

Jamie Ward: not sure I can remember that. But it's it's called LHON for short and so I was, yes, I was diagnosed with it and so I lost the sight in my left eye. Within six weeks, so that was mid May, I was blind in my left eye. And the more worrying thing about the diagnosis was, of course, the LHON, the natural sort of course of the disease is that you then lose the sight in your second eye, between two and six months later.

So that was the most difficult period, really, because it was sort of a, an in between period where I had a sword of Damocles hanging over me. and of course it came to pass six months later. The only good thing about this disease was that it was absolutely bang on schedule.

Helen Wada: It followed a plan, 

Jamie Ward: It followed the [00:22:00] plan. 

Helen Wada: yeah.

Jamie Ward: So on the 30th of November I was, watching Only Connect on television which is a BBC program. So sorry, Channel 4. I wasn't, on brand for that one. and I remember not being able to see the clues on the screen anymore. And I thought, oh, it started. And then six weeks after that, I was registered blind.

And just for the, listeners, in case they Google the disease. The normal sort of course, the disease is just to lose sight in the very central vision and most sufferers of this condition. Retain their peripheral vision. I've unfortunately been quite unlucky and it's been quite aggressive, so I don't have much vision left anymore.

So I I went I went down to what's called light dark perception, where you can tell whether it's day or night, but not much more. and I've had a tiny little bounce back due to medication, so I can now. You know, if you hold, if I hold my hand quite close, I can count [00:23:00] fingers, but that's about it.

So not much vision left. So I'm described as low vision, I guess, but blind for as a shorthand. But as I say, I mean, in terms of you know, the work and the conditions, so Channel 4 has been brilliant, I have to say the most difficult period was the period in between when I could still see. I had 20 20 vision with one eye.

But I knew I was going to go blind and that, you know, psychologically was very difficult. But I spent that period, I had a vision bucket list. Which, 

Helen Wada: that, I remember our conversations that you were, going to tick them off,

Jamie Ward: yes.

Helen Wada: as the months ticked by.

Jamie Ward: yeah. And I traveled around. I went around France. I went to Italy. I went to Greece. I did some traveling. I also went to museums around London because I really loved looking at paintings and, visited lots of art galleries. yes, I remember that Van Gogh's Sunflowers was the last painting I saw,

[00:24:00] interesting how much you can see as something on your memory If you really want to, because I remember looking and looking at this picture. As people just, you know, wandered past and snapped things on their mobile phone and snapped a picture on their mobile phone and walked on.

And interestingly, there's research I heard the other day, and it reminded me of this, time when I was in the art gallery, that if you take a picture of something with your mobile phone, you actually remember it much less well than just experiencing it. So, so I thought, oh, that's really interesting that I was sitting there really trying to take this in.

And I can still remember that. That picture and how, although it looks yellow, the picture, how many sort of browns and blues are in the picture as well as yellow. And I can still remember it. So, yeah, but that was the last picture I saw. And then since then, I mean, I stayed at work. I stayed at work all the way through.

I didn't take a day off. That was my. That was my choice. Many people do take [00:25:00] time off and that's right for them. For me, more importantly, was to have structure and routine and regularity. And so I carried on working, but it was tough because with a. a degenerative disease you're constantly playing catch up at work with the adjustments, right?

So, 

Helen Wada: Mm-Hmm. 

Jamie Ward: you're constantly trying to find ways in which you can continue to do things. And some days I was flummoxed, you know, I would, get something to, look at or, make a decision on, and, you know, I just couldn't, do it. And so every day was a challenge with each new stage of deterioration.

You know, I was having to overcome a new barrier for about that first six months, but finally got the technology in place got the training in place as well, which ironically as head of. training amongst other things. I, I had only myself to blame really, but finally got the training in place, which is essential.

And [00:26:00] it's one of the barriers that's faced by people who are blind or partially sighted at work. It's not only the technology, it's getting the training.

Helen Wada: Yeah.

Jamie Ward: And the other, thing that I managed to overcome, I guess, was staying in work because there are very low percentages of people who are blind and partially sighted in work, it's about 25 percent of working age. which is very, low percent. And given the kind of, you know, very common work that we have these days in offices, sort of brain work, sitting at computers, there's absolutely no reason why you can't do it as a blind and partially sighted person. So it really is the attitudes and biases of companies that that, that don't consider blind and partially sighted people and the talent that they bring.

As, potential for them. But obviously being in work, I was able to stay in work. And yeah, and now say I do pretty much everything that I could do 

Helen Wada: j Jane, 

Jamie Ward: in a different way 

Helen Wada: you. You [00:27:00] are an absolute inspiration, and I know you are for many others as well. And, you know, it's heartwarming to hear the story. It's very sad that it happened, but actually, what you've taken from it, and when we go back to that conversation about, you know, how being human at work, you know, we need to stop and think, because about how other people receive things.

And I think, you know, that's conversations that we've, had before in terms of how can you be thinking about other people? They may not have lost their sight, but we all come at things from different perspectives. And in terms of your learning from that, in terms of maybe, you know, the way people come talk to you for introducing yourself.

I remember the conversation where, we met and it's, you know, hello, Jamie, this is Helen here. So, You know. People being curious. I'm just, you know, intrigued to hear about maybe some of your learnings as [00:28:00] if people are listening to that going, what can we be doing in our, on our businesses to be more inclusive, to be thinking of others?

Lessons in Inclusivity

Helen Wada: What would you say having been through this experience over the last couple of years?

Jamie Ward: I think it's about listening to people and this is for people with all kinds of conditions, impairments, disabilities and just generally stuff going on in their lives. I mean, think, know, a lesson for me is that, you know, people have, stuff going on in their lives. And we just don't know what's what's behind that that look or that smile or that quietness or you know, the mood that somebody might bring in with them in the morning.

and so it's important as, managers and as coaches to ask, you know, how are you doing? How are you really doing? You know?

Helen Wada: It's, the, how are you really doing? Because I think everybody does that, the, how are you doing, but actually taking a pause and, you know, I'll draw on [00:29:00] your sunflower explanation, but it's, we can ask, or we can really ask, like we can look and we can really look.

And I think for me, it's the power that I've certainly learned as a coach is actually just stopping and checking in properly and, tuning into your, senses, you know, the tone of the voice, the speed of the voice, the emotion that you might hear in it. to be able to tell me a bit more about that. What's good. Would you like to talk about it? 

Jamie Ward: absolutely. 

Helen Wada: we, just kind of go, yeah, I'm fine. When actually you've been running it. I had a conversation with somebody this morning and actually they were five minutes late because they'd had chaos with the kids. And actually they needed to take a five minute pause before we had a conversation.

And I was so glad that they did. I said, you're far better off taking a five minute pause and apologizing. than running into something and then kind of blurbing away [00:30:00] without really thinking where the other person's coming from.

Jamie Ward: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I guess also I guess my learnings, I guess I've noticed, that we as humans have certain reactions to either bad news or or people's situations, which are perfectly natural, actually are a bit hilarious around the edges. And I

think I've talked to you. I've talked to you about them before, I think, but, um, and, uh, and I'm not sort of repeating them here, but it's to make fun of people.

And in fact, I should preface it by the fact that I am a firm believer in disabled people taking responsibility for making other people feel comfortable. And that is, not always a popular view, and I'm sure I'll get my critics for saying it, but it is important that everybody feels comfortable in a conversation.

And so I absolutely [00:31:00] don't want people to feel uncomfortable if they make any reference to seeing or not seeing or stuff like that when they're talking to me. But there are certain reactions that we as humans have to trauma that I noticed when I was losing my sight. which aren't particularly helpful and are funny.

So I'll just tell you about them. The first one is disbelief. So when somebody tells you bad news, it's it's quite hard to believe sometimes. So I had people say to me, you don't look blind. Now I don't know what looking blind looks like actually. And I still don't. Although

Listeners won't be I'm sorry. 

Helen Wada: you look great today.

Jamie Ward: Well, the listeners won't be able to tell, but actually I do try and maintain eye contact. And, you know it's not easy to do that, but I do try. But my eyes don't look any different because the problem with me is the connection between my eye and my brain rather than my eye itself. So if [00:32:00] people are expecting blind people to have funny looking eyes, I mean, that in itself is a strange sort of assumption, but but my eyes look, look like a sighted person's.

And it's, I always say it's a little bit like if you're watching television, but somebody pulls the plug out, the television is still there and looks like a television, but there's just no picture on it. And that's what's happened to me. Somebody's pulled the plug out. So yeah, so that's the disbelief thing.

So I think I think if, as a line manager, your direct report tells you something. kind of check your disbelief leave your disbelief at the door and sort of fully engage with what they're telling you. I think that the second thing is about giving advice. So as managers, too easy to jump into giving advice.

I have to say that this wasn't the case with my manager at Channel 4, but, but I did have occasions where people would give me advice and, You know, I'll take any advice on how to manage my athlete's foot, but [00:33:00] but not how to be a better blind person. So an example of that was when somebody told me to that I would make a much better impression if I looked them in the eye when I was talking to them.

To which I said, mate, I can't even see your head. But I mean, I do make an effort now. And I realized that actually probably was good advice, but it wasn't at the time because I was in the middle of trauma. And I think that's the difference. It wasn't necessarily the quality of the advice itself.

It was the timing was poor. Because if you're in the middle of trauma, then you're not in a good place to receive advice. And it goes against all our principles as coaches, right? That 

Helen Wada: Do you know what I mean? This is what I'm thinking about. 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

Helen Wada: This brings this, I'm really conscious of time because we could be taught for ages but, we will wrap up I know. But actually it brings us full circle into the coaching conversation because at it's heart. Coaching is about putting the other person in the heart of the conversation.

And whether that's thinking about where people come from [00:34:00] a disability perspective or a specific point of view or value or belief, it's about as leaders, as managers taking a coaching approach to conversation. Conversations make the world go round. Conversations make businesses tick. Conversations are the ones that help us to drive growth, new opportunities, innovation, that ultimately generates income to be able to invest and deliver to the stakeholders and people that you're working with.

And so, you know, ultimately, that's a long winded way of saying, if we start with a coaching approach, we think about where you are coming from, rather than where we are coming from. then actually invariably, not always, you can get to a better outcome. 

There's a time and place for advice but, actually for me, the coaching is so powerful.

Jamie Ward: that's a brilliant summary. Thank you.

I 

Helen Wada: you, Jamie. And then just as [00:35:00] we leave the listeners, I think, you know, you've given some great top tips. So I'm going to ask you to maybe leave a question for the listeners as coaches, you know, we love a good question, What question would you leave the listeners with today as they reflect back on our conversation and to relate to their world?

Jamie Ward: guess, I guess for me, the question to ask yourself with coaching is, you have you really listened to understand, the, person that's sitting in front of you? Yeah. So I think that would be the key question for me.

Helen Wada: Love me. That's brilliant, Jamie. Thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure and a delight to work with you and you continue to be an inspiration for around you and I hope the listeners who have taken time to listen today. So

Jamie Ward: It's been a total pleasure for me too, Helen. Thank you very much.

Helen Wada: no worries. Have a wonderful weekend.

Jamie Ward: And you.

Helen Wada: Take care. Bye bye.

[00:36:00] You for listening to the Human Wise Podcast. Don't forget to check out the show notes below. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with your network. To get in touch, you can find me, Helen Wada or the Human Advantage on LinkedIn, or visit www.thehumanadvantage.co uk. I'd love to hear from you if any of the topics discussed.

Resonated or struck inspiration. Let's keep this conversation going and build better business together. See you next time.

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Helen Wada

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