Ep19: Secrets to Mastering Difficult Conversations at Work with Sarah Rozenthuler

Welcome to Human Wise, the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work.

With host Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage, each episode will explore what being human at work looks like across a wide range of industries, from people in senior management to those on the ground.

In this episode of HumanWISE, Helen is joined by Sarah Rozenthuler, a global leadership expert and author, to discuss the importance of conversations in the workplace. They explore Sarah's journey from aspiring architect to psychologist, the significance of effective dialogue, and practical strategies for creating a safe space for meaningful conversations. 

Sarah shares insights from her latest book, 'Now We're Talking,' including four secrets to better dialogues that can lead to deeper connections and improved outcomes at work. 

The episode covers topics like overcoming fear in difficult conversations, finding inner ground, and being present during interactions.

Topics Discussed:

• Conversations in Personal and Professional Development
• Fear of Difficult Conversations
• Importance of Presence in Conversations
• Four Secrets for Effective Communication
• Creating Safe Spaces in Conversations

View Extended Shownotes here

About Sarah Rozenthuler

• Visit Sarah’s website
• Read “Now We’re Talking”
• Follow Sarah on Linkedin

Sarah has over 15 years’ experience as a consultant to global organizations such as Discovery Inc, Boots, Savills, NatWest, BCG, Book Trust and Choice Support.

She has worked with CEOs and their teams, facilitated sessions for networks of NGOs, and given talks at international summits.

Sarah’s areas of expertise include leadership development, relationship building, dialogue and Purpose.

Further links to follow:

Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada

The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/

Chapters

• 0:00 Ep19: Secrets to Mastering Difficult Conversations at Work with Sarah Rozenthuler
• 0:29 Introduction and Guest Welcome
• 1:54 Sarah's Background and Personal Insights
• 3:01 The Power of Conversations
• 3:27 Sarah's Career Shift: From Architecture to Psychology
• 6:34 Coaching and Human Framework
• 10:11 The Four Secrets of Effective Dialogue
• 26:19 Building Trust and Rapport
• 36:32 Practical Tips for Difficult Conversations
• 38:56 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Ep19: Secrets to Mastering Difficult Conversations at Work with Sarah Rozenthuler

Helen Wada: [00:00:00] Welcome to HumanWISE, a podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work. Hosted by me, Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage. I'm thrilled to be on this journey with you, learning what it really means to be human in business, one conversation at a 

time.

Introduction and Guest Welcome

Helen Wada: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Human Wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Sarah Rozenthuler here with me today for this conversation. Sarah and I have known each other for a while, but we really spent some time together We've back in the summer when I was doing my advanced group coaching skills and working with you there and, saw firsthand the fantastic work on dialogue.

That you do and, work with and, with [00:01:00] your, book that launched earlier in the year as well. And so I knew when I was doing the second series of this podcast to actually I would love to have you on board and have a conversation. So welcome Sarah, she's a global leadership expert author of three books.

It is now, isn't it, Sarah? And also worked as an associate professor beside Business School at Oxford University. Really on focusing on dialogue and how to have better conversations in the workplace and outside. So welcome Sarah.

Sarah Rozenthuler: Thank you very much, Helen. I'm delighted to be here with you, with our listeners, of course, and great to reconnect, to explore yeah, the sort of, the very human dimension of work together.

Helen Wada: Yeah, absolutely. and talking of the human dimension of work, I shared a few little bits from your bio. 

Sarah's Background and Personal Insights

Helen Wada: Who is Sarah as a human being? Who are your friends and family? How would they describe you?

Sarah Rozenthuler: Oh, it's such a [00:02:00] great question. I think they would say I'm a friendly soul, overall hard working would probably be acknowledged as well. Very independent minded, I think they would say, maybe a little bit stubborn.

Helen Wada: How does that show, how does that show up in what you do?

Yeah. 

Sarah Rozenthuler: set a goal, like, I'm going to write a book, I will see it through. And I think they would say, I'm a sort of safe pair of hands. Creative interested in, yeah, some of the deeper dimensions of life. Spirituality. what makes people feel part of a bigger whole as well. So yeah, that's a little bit of the flavor of me.

Helen Wada: So that, that, deeper sense of self underneath what comes out and what up in those [00:03:00] conversations.

Sarah Rozenthuler: Yes.

The Power of Conversations

Helen Wada: And I'm curious what, drew you to, to really focusing on conversation as, an area of expertise, because it is an area of expertise. I think sometimes it's not seen as that, if I can say that by, many people in the world, because we all talk, we rarely think about how we talk, but this is really your area of specialism. So what, 

Sarah's Career Shift: From Architecture to Psychology

Sarah Rozenthuler: one, there's probably many answers I could give, but one answer goes back to when I was 17. 

I was doing my A levels and I had an offer from the University of Nottingham to study architecture and I was one of the few kids at school who knew what she wanted to be when she grew up, which was being an architect.

Helen Wada: But back to that being determined, Sarah I, sense been there a very young age.

Sarah Rozenthuler: There we go, very good. Yeah, so I was sort of following this thread. I'd chosen [00:04:00] maths, physics, geography, A level subjects to support that track. And it was the night before my final A level paper in maths over the dinner table when my mum said to me, for me it was completely out of the blue, I was like, I although there had actually been a background conversation going on between my mum and dad along the lines of my mum saying to my dad, should I say anything?

And my dad going, don't unsettle her, she's doing her A levels. Anyway, it got to the point where I think my mum really felt she needed to say something. And what she said to me was I don't think you want to study architecture, do you? And I was shocked. I left the dinner table, I went up to my bedroom.

I shut down all my books on algebra and so on, and I looked outta the window and I felt this huge weight lift off my shoulders. [00:05:00] And I just thought my mum is right. You know, I'm not really interested in buildings and floor plans. I'm interested in people. And so basically what happened was the Nottingham University very kindly switched my offer, at my request or my teacher's request actually from architecture to psychology.

And in a way, I could say the rest is history because I learned so much. Psychology and so on, but I share the story because I look back on that from a conversation point of view and I think, my goodness, a short conversation is such a powerful intervention potentially in someone's life because your life might fork down a completely different path as a result of having a short talk with somebody.

And I think, although I wasn't so conscious [00:06:00] of it at the time, but I think that was a beginning of an interest in conversation as a tool.

Helen Wada: And It's that's so powerful. And, thank you for sharing that. I mean I didn't pay that story. It was, we worked together and I but I can see and I think putting my coaching hat on, you know, what I saw there was you had the insight yourself. you know, And we talk about this a lot in coaching skills and things this, wasn't your mom telling you not to do architecture.

And there's a really subtle, but a really, important difference. 

Coaching and Human Framework

Helen Wada: And this is where the, get excited about the human framework and what we're doing, because faces through coaching is that you don't have to tell your supporting others to have the insights for themselves. And what that does is actually that puts the ownership and accountability on you.

You are the one then spoke to your teacher. You were the one that then made that happen. And I just wonder [00:07:00] what the outcome might have been. And we'll never know, right? If mum had gone, not sure you should be doing architecture.

Sarah Rozenthuler: Yes, I think if I had followed the track of architecture, there'd be a few more quirky buildings in the world, maybe new roofs, and I don't think I would have been that happy or fulfilled at all. And I really like what you're saying, how other people can be a spur for us, they, or maybe even be a goad for us, they could be a gatekeeper for us in some way, and of course it goes back to the individual and their own felt sense of what is true for them, what's right for them, and it's then their responsibility to act on that or not.

Helen Wada: And, I think, you know, building on that, that felt sense piece, because again, that's something, and I would even say, you know, when I was doing my first diploma in coaching [00:08:00] really tapping into that felt sense of, Who we really are and, the clients that I'm working with, you know, when you think of coaching, it's sort of very much the gray model, you know, what are your goals?

What's your reality? What are the opportunities where are we going? all great questions. It's very structured. It's, you know, it's a simple model of coaching that can work very well. But, and I would say, and the felt sense that you just highlighted there for me is where the power is, not just in coaching. But in conversations throughout life and importantly at work, and that's why we're here. That's what we're talking about That's it. say, actually tapping into who you are, what you believe in is, is so important, for you and your career. But about how you can engage with your teams and developing those under, underneath you and working with you. And then for me, it's the client conversations as well. In [00:09:00] fact, how can we bring these coaching skills to that are human in essence to the commercial world? Because ultimately, if you're tapping into your felt sense, if you're being open curious and conversation, and we'll get to that in a moment with your clients, with your stakeholders, with everybody out then not only are you having better conversations, giving them the insight.

Through the way in which you have a conversation, but also we're building a more human working world because we're all tapping into who we are important to us. And I get excited because I'm like, I just notes together and it's all taps into who you are.

Sarah Rozenthuler: It's great to hear your sense of excitement. And of course that can show up in the body as well. There can be a felt, I don't know if you've got a felt sense, physically, about that excitement, whether it's fluttering

in the 

chest. 

Helen Wada: I do this thing, but I can feel the energy. [00:10:00] 

And if we just take a step back and you talk about that in your book, don't In terms of how we are are and how we're sensing.

Sarah Rozenthuler: I do. I do. 

The Four Secrets of Effective Dialogue

Sarah Rozenthuler: And I mean, we may come on to it at the heart of this latest book. Now we're talking. And to discuss what really matters, there are these four secrets, or four interventions you could also call them.

Helen Wada: I went to that chapter. I saw that. I'm like, Oh, what are they?

oh,

Sarah Rozenthuler: uh, 

Helen Wada: me more. Tell us what, what those secrets are.

Sarah Rozenthuler: well the first one is find your brand. And I think that really connects with what you were saying there.

And how our felt sense of something. Whether that's a sense of excitement and fluttery energy. Or whether it's a sense of heavy heartedness, or a sense of dread in our stomach, like that is such powerful data for telling us [00:11:00] sort of what's true for us at any moment, like that sense of just massive relief. And shock when, you know, my mum said that thing to me when I was 17. And so by Find Your Ground, what I write about is how you mentally and emotionally prepare for having a conversation with somebody else. And that requires often some inner work first. So you figure out what is going on inside you. So if there's something you might really need to express or ask or Yeah, find your way through.

You've got some sense of that offline before you then step into the conversation. That's what I mean by find your grain.

Helen Wada: Yeah. And that's, the first one of of other little tidbits, right. In terms of,

Sarah Rozenthuler: Yes. Yeah. So [00:12:00] there are three other secrets and I'm really happy to cover those. And I'm just going to name my bias, which is That all sustainable outer change in our lives, in our teams, in our organizations is preceded by inner change. And it's often to do with the change of state. So maybe from moving from a more anxious state to a more relaxed state or a change in consciousness because we've become aware that something really matters to us.

That actually, for example, Let's say I become aware that the balance of exchange between an organization and myself no longer feels fair. And so I might then work out that actually what I really need to do, uncomfortable though it might seem, is ask for, I don't know, a promotion or a pay rise. [00:13:00] And I might have to go through a discernment process to really work that out.

Helen Wada: yeah. 

Sarah Rozenthuler: yeah, that's the find your ground.

Helen Wada: and I love that. It's that, in itself, it's start with, you,

Sarah Rozenthuler: Yes.

Helen Wada: start with who you are. And I think, you know, when I, 25, 25, 30 years working in professional services industry, There's a lot of good training out there, but it's, you need to be doing this or these are the tips or these are the techniques and things.

And I think where it's different and where we as coaches come in is starting with the why and starting with who you are with knowing yourself is the beginning of a wisdom. I've said that on previous podcasts, Aristotle. And that's where we start. It's beautiful, but it's so true. And I honestly think that I wouldn't be here doing the coaching work that I'm doing without having worked on myself.

And it's a process. It's not something that happens overnight. It takes time.

Sarah Rozenthuler: Yeah. And good on you for engaging [00:14:00] with that. And as you'll know for yourself, it's also so fulfilling as well. And I know in the corporate world, there can be a lot of pushback and some people will say things like, Oh, that's just navel gazing 

and Roll their eyes. But actually, yes. Back to Aristotle, that's where the journey really begins.

And I think if we don't do that inner work, that reflection, before sometimes we have the big conversation, then we don't find our ground. And, yeah, I think it's there and now we're talking. I tell the story of this is years ago when I was working in the civil service. Thank you. 

I was working for the Department of Work and Pensions in Sheffield and the Civil Service had set up this new secondment scheme, so you had to be quite proactive.

If you could find a host department you could go [00:15:00] there for a few months. I'm very excited by this opportunity. I spoke with a psychologist at the cabinet office in London who said, God, we really need more resource. We'd love to have you. And then I had to ask my line manager permission to let me go for a few months.

And this was way before I got more skilled in dialogue. And I caught her coming out of quite a senior level meeting. She'd climbed up three flights of stairs. She was a bit breathless. And I put my request to her. Didn't pick my moment. Didn't have a good opening line. And of course, guess what?

She said no. You know, and she shut the door to her office. And she shut the door. That chapter, potential new chapter for me. And there's an example of me not finding my ground.

Helen Wada: Yeah.

Sarah Rozenthuler: And I just give it as an illustration that this is [00:16:00] far from navel gazing really, and I sometimes talk about conversation as an aperture through which a new chapter, a new opportunity can flow.

or if it's poorly handled as it was by me in that moment, you might just find that it shuts down rather than opens up and that's very tangible.

Helen Wada: and, and I think that's the sense you know, we're fearful. I was, talking to Suzanne Evans on the podcast last week around Actually, and it was actually not on the podcast because we stopped the recording and then we had a conversation afterwards. I'm like, I wish we'd recorded that bit, you know what it's like.

But what we were talking about was, It's the natural fear. For having difficult conversations, whether that's about an opportunity for you, whether that's going into a sales situation, whether it's having a difficult conversation with team members, we are naturally [00:17:00] fearful and it's we tend to hesitate and stop ourselves from having those conversations. And so I'm curious from your perspective with research, the writing that you've done, how can we help ourselves to feel more confident and present in those situations? You might not present at the top of the stairs when she first, right, but it's acknowledging that. So, just curious, what's your perspective on how we embrace difficult conversations?

Sarah Rozenthuler: Well, I think a good starting point is to acknowledge what the fears are.

I think it's really understandable to have, yeah, a sense of concern and certainly what the research indicates. about 70 percent of managers and leaders report avoidance. So say, yep, I avoid those difficult conversations at some of the time.

I think it's also interesting to acknowledge what might be [00:18:00] going on with the other 30 percent because I think there's another pattern in addition to avoidance, which is that some managers and leaders, are almost going to the opposite end and they're plowing right in to having the difficult conversation with no prep, making a mess of it.

There's all sorts of fallout from that and that then reinforces the perception of people around them that difficult conversations are just too tricky or not worth it. You've got these two patterns running in many organizations of avoidance and then attempt poorly executed. And so how do we cut through that pattern?

Well, yep, very good to acknowledge what the concerns are and what is leading to the avoidance, what's getting in the way I think there are all sorts of reasons, maybe just cover a couple of [00:19:00] them. I think one is uncertainty about the outcome

And I think that's really understandable because if it's a true conversation you are not in control of the outcome.

You are Yeah, responsible for how you show up and what you say and how you express yourself, but you are not responsible and you cannot control how your message will be received.

Even if you've done all that wonderful find your ground prep, there's still no guarantee ultimately of how the conversation will go, so it's inherently uncertain and of course that will make many of us sort of want to take a step back and even run for the hills.

Helen Wada: Yeah.

Sarah Rozenthuler: I also think there's a real fear sometimes of damaging the relationship. You know, if I speak out, if I give that person some tricky feedback, the [00:20:00] feedback I really want to give them, you know, are they going to get really reactive? Are they going to throw their toys out of the pram? Are they then going to give me the cold shoulder?

And so on. So I think that's another concern. And. I think one of the wonderful insights from psychology is that actually if you are honest with yourself and you see your own patterns more clearly, that in and of itself is a powerful intervention. It might not make your fears disappear, but it reduces the grip that they have on you.

Or to put it in very colloquial language, what do they say? Name it to tame it, you know? 

Helen Wada: Yeah, 

Sarah Rozenthuler: it reduces the level of fear if you can be honest with yourself about what's going on.

Helen Wada: Yeah [00:21:00] I love that. And think you're right. It's calling it out. It's acknowledging it. And in the work that I when I'm working with groups and and we talk about our limiting beliefs and just drawing them out and just taking some time to see what, is stopping me?

Because. For all of us in every day.

we have things that that stretches out of our comfort zone. That's how we grow, 

but we need to acknowledge it. Say, okay, well, how would you reframe that? And again, taking the language and lessons from coaching, how do we reframe that in way that it can be helpful to you? It's a bit like imposter syndrome, isn't it?

I mean, cause do a lot of work with imposter syndrome with my clients and a wonderful technique about. If the imposter is just a part of you and it is helpful to you, what would it be saying? And oh goodness, the change in conversation sometimes in terms of that that that [00:22:00] you remember at the top of the stairs all those years ago, that makes you worry, What do you take from that and what can you take with you

Forward? And so it's kind of, for me, it just takes a wider perspective sometimes. On what we're trying to achieve. I, link that to the sales conversations that I used to have as a global client direct in terms of ultimately you're, wanting to build your business, you're wanting to deliver more work, but you talk beautifully about the container of conversation.

And, again, comes back to coaching for me. It's how do we create that safe space for our clients to open up, share things with us, they can trust us. We can challenge them. So it's not about agreeing or just having this piece of advice. It's, challenging in a way, or maybe asking a question, going back to what your mum did all those years ago, [00:23:00] in a safe space that it makes you have that insight that you can go away and do something about it.

It 

Sarah Rozenthuler: really appreciate you bringing in the notion of the container that safe space. For a conversation. It's a clumsy word, isn't it? And it's a strange word that could 

make 

Helen Wada: is.

Yeah. 

Sarah Rozenthuler: containers or plastic boxes in fridges. And yet, I'm sure you're aware, you know, it's been imported from the therapeutic language where therapists talk about the safe space, the container with their client.

I argue and now we're talking that safety, psychological safety. is necessary but not sufficient for having a difficult conversation sometimes because we need other qualities alongside safety. We need, and I'm thinking particularly in team meetings or multi stakeholder meetings where [00:24:00] you've maybe got eight people in the room or 25 people in the room, there also needs to be some energy in the room, some engagement, some, a question.

that people are really curious about and a sense of possibility that things might actually change as a result of this dialogue. So it's not just seen as a talking shop or it's not just seen as, oh, it's all talk and no action here. So the container, I worked for a number of years with Bill Isaacs, who's written one of the seminal texts.

It's called Dialogue and the Art of Thinking Together. And one of the things I heard Bill say over the years was as the, let me get this right, as the container is, so goes the conversation. So if you don't have a sense of safety in the room, [00:25:00] there's no way you're going to have a productive dialogue.

For example, I remember working at an oil refinery with trade union side or management 

side. If people aren't feeling safe to speak out, when there can sometimes be quite fractious issues, you are not gonna have a dialogue. So container. So as I say, thank you for bringing that in 'cause it's absolutely foundational and, proceeds, and you might have seen it in the book and now we are talking.

write about container building before coming on to the four secrets because it's so important.

Helen Wada: is so important. And for those people that may be just hearing this for the first time. So, I mean, you know, you and I talk familiarity in this because we use it every day. But there's a lot of people that won't there. What are they talking about? How do I begin to create this container of trust for any [00:26:00] conversation I'm having?

Just curious to go a little bit deeper on that. So, you know, so from a practical perspective, you know, I'm really practical. Okay. So what can I do to start thinking about the conversations I have and how I might start to create this container for the right dialogue?

Mmm. 

Building Trust and Rapport

Sarah Rozenthuler: here in terms of the container building and the four secrets, but where your question takes me is actually to the second secret and the skills involved there that can really help also with container building. There are two main ones I write with this, so I call the second secret build a breach.

And this is all about building trust and rapport, particularly in one on one settings like you and I are having now. And then, of course, this would be part of what needs to be in place for a team meeting and a group meeting. And the two main pieces [00:27:00] I write about are authenticity. Speaking and deeper listening or active listening.

And again, for the coaches among us, this will be very familiar territory. But as we say, let's acknowledge that some people might be coming quite fresh to this.

So in terms of authentic speaking, then, and this is where the work you've maybe done around finding your ground and discerning what's true for you would really help you.

And then once you've worked out what it is you really need to be saying or want to say, it's about how you're going to say that and how you're going to express yourself. So there's something about the actual words that you'll use. and one of the best bits of prep you could do for a difficult conversation is to find your opening and [00:28:00] in the book I give examples of opening lines that I've seen work really effectively either in person or in an email when you're inviting somebody to the table

Helen Wada: Yeah.

Sarah Rozenthuler: beyond that it might then really help you to think through how you're going to say what you really need to say once you're getting to the heart of the issue.

And I draw, for example, on the wonderful body of work, Nonviolent Communication, Rosenberg's work. And so just to maybe pick one thing from there's so much I could say, but if I just pick one thing from there to be aware of when you're making judgments that might come across as being overly critical. of the other person and when you're more in a place of making observations.

So you might, for example, change your [00:29:00] language to talk about what's been working and what hasn't been working or what's not working for me. Bring in some element of neutrality alongside the essence of what you really want to say. rather than coming from a place of being judgmental or critical, overly critical, which can then come across to the other person as attacking or blaming, and you're not going to build a bridge in that

Helen Wada: It's so important to listen to you, And I couldn't imagine the conversations, but the words now, I use a lot in my coaches, so I'm sensing.

Because that again is temp tapping into our felt sense. But there's no judgment and I've. I've, we've all been in meetings. I used to sit in meetings and you know when they're going off track or you know when somebody's not engaged because if you're reading the room talking about [00:30:00] how you once you're in that conversation, the prep, you need to do your prep, but you actually need to be focused.

And the word we haven't talked about quite a lot is presence and being present because and being present because only then can the conversation really flow. if you're. watching, observing, sensing how it's going. And I know you, referenced mirroring in your book as well, which Chris Voss talks about in terms of never, split the difference in terms of negotiation and how we can play things back and hold a mirror up to what we're hearing without judgment.

But it just is that port and sense check to say, are we on the right track? Is this where you want to go with this? Or are we missing the point? Because that's the same whether you're in a group in the office, whether you're, you're selling, when you're talking to customers. If you're not capturing that, you could be on a railroad to nowhere, 

Sarah Rozenthuler: Yeah. 

Helen Wada: [00:31:00] frankly.

Yeah. 

Sarah Rozenthuler: you're, I'm sensing and what you're also saying there about the need to be present, you know, the need to be fully here, you know, not getting distracted by my smartphone or any other device, not getting distracted mentally by my own inner chatter about, Oh, I don't know the person I really need to send an email to at lunchtime or, You know, what I need to buy for dinner this evening, whatever it is.

So, I really, and I think that can be a great way into a conversational part of the conversation. Also, because there's something, I don't know what the right word is, a little bit tentative about it. Because the thing is that we don't have to get it all right and sewn up. So, 

Helen Wada: yeah. 

Sarah Rozenthuler: when it comes to, if I can maybe cover the listening part as well, because you're taking me there with your comment about [00:32:00] mirroring, and this is the other skill set that I think is really needed to build a bridge secret number two listed on there, is around people generally don't change, they don't change their minds.

They don't change their behavior. They don't change their perspective until they feel they've been understood and properly listened to. So I think it's so powerful to come in. I mean, it's a little bit like you're un sensing. I'm sensing, you know, that you're feeling frustrated here. Or I'm sensing we really need to make a change here to ways of working or whatever it is.

And another simple phrase I use sometimes is, it seems like, you know, it seems like you're saying, and to do that reflecting back, that mirroring, [00:33:00] before you then give your opinion and say how it is for you. And of course that can be really important as well. 

But I think it's so important to do the active listening and the mirroring and reflecting back.

And I don't know if you know that phrase, be a flat mirror. And be a flat mirror means to reflect back to the other person what they're saying without inserting yourself. 

Helen Wada: yes. 

Sarah Rozenthuler: Point. So that the other person feels you've really got them.

Helen Wada: You, You've heard them. And that's listening to words, that's listening to the way that they say it. It's, if you are visually, if you can see them, it's It's seeing how their facial expressions, their mannerisms, all that kind of stuff. There's so much to talk about with talk. So, I mean, it's, can't believe how long we've been talking, we're flying we, will need to wrap it up just I'm [00:34:00] conscious of time and things, but goodness, so much to cover.

Maybe a a takeaway and a question the listeners in terms of what would be the one thing, you know, for you to get people to think about as they're on this journey.

Sarah Rozenthuler: So we take away a question. Let me come to that very quickly. If I may, I'm just going to name secrets three and four for this.

Helen Wada: Oh yes. Do that. Do that first.

Sarah Rozenthuler: In case anybody's sitting there listening, kind of going, yeah, but she didn't say what the other two And in fact you have already named secret number three, which is the read the room one.

Helen Wada: Right. Yes.

Sarah Rozenthuler: And in the book, there's lots of material, particularly for how you can have better conversations in team settings and group settings. As you were saying, noticing when things are about to derail and being able to intervene more skillfully. And then the final secret number four is about holding [00:35:00] space and how you, in a way it's back to container building, but it's container building particularly when there are tricky things to talk about again, in group settings where you've got to navigate conflict or real differences of perspective when issues of complex decisions aren't straightforward.

Helen Wada: Which is pretty much most of the time, right?

Sarah Rozenthuler: In organizational life. Most of the time. And how you, and this is back to your point about presence as well. And I'm borrowing another phrase from Bill Isaacs here. How you, as the convener of the conversation, can be bigger than the biggest disturbance in the room. So when the temperature really goes up, the issues get heated, you stay grounded and centred so you can have an environment in which you can [00:36:00] explore difference.

So that's what I mean by holding space. So much more I could say, but just 

Helen Wada: I think You're right. And thank you for bringing those in. Because I think it is important that we, share those four secrets and, people can hopefully find you, find the book, have a read as well. It's been wonderful, but before we close, maybe we could just take one, one top tip, maybe in one question 

For the listeners, Sarah.

Yeah. Oh 

Sarah Rozenthuler: be building on what we've already covered. 

Practical Tips for Difficult Conversations

Sarah Rozenthuler: I think one of the reasons that difficult conversations are difficult is because they're a real dynamic between you have to both do your prep really, I think to maximize the likelihood of a good outcome when we've spoken about that, and you also need to be prepared to, I'm just going to say for shorthand, improvise, think on your feet.

respond in the moment, [00:37:00] and that's why being present is so important. And so it's recognizing that both things are called for preparation and improvisation, and therefore the importance of picking your moment and finding the right time and place and means for having that conversation. That would be my overall tip and takeaway.

Yes, I think it would

be, if you're faced with 

Helen Wada: know that questions help us to think about our own own worlds.

Sarah Rozenthuler: the possibility of a tricky conversation. I think a really powerful question could be, what would I say if I had no fear of the consequences? So if I wasn't worried about damaging the relationship or the uncertainty or what the other person might say [00:38:00] in response, What would I actually really want to say and choose to say to that person, and that might bring to the surface the unmet need you have, and Rosenberg talks about this that often things are difficult in communication because there are unmet needs and we often don't pay attention to them.

And so you might then realize what you really want to do is to ask for an apology. Or there's been some, kind of acknowledgement been missing. So, I think that would be a final question that I would leave our listeners with.

Helen Wada: Oh, thank you. And Couldn't agree more. sometimes those final, those bits that you're fearful of saying that the questions that you might ask that open up that a whole new dialogue. 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Helen Wada: You thank you. Sarah. it's been an absolute pleasure. [00:39:00] I know those listening will have very much enjoyed the conversation, hopefully got some real top tips and things for them to to think about well, but if if they want to find you where's, best in terms of contact details and to, look out your books.

You've written?

Sarah Rozenthuler: Oh, thank you. So, I'm active on LinkedIn. As you know, people can find me there. You're very welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. On my own website as well. So, Sarah Rozenthuler. I have a monthly newsletter. I produce a monthly blog, a monthly podcast episode. So there are multiple ways that people could connect, or if they wanted to hear more, as well as read more.

And my three books, the latest one there, We're Talking, How to Discuss What Really Matters, it's there on, Blackwell's, Wordery, Amazon, all the usual books.

Helen Wada: You, you name it, you can find it. And it's I have my copy here.

Sarah Rozenthuler: Thank you, Helen. That's lovely to [00:40:00] see your copy there. Thank you.

Helen Wada: I love it. It's added to the the multiple books that I, have as I'm starting to write mine that comes on the, human why It's starting to draw and, you know, the, the books and it's just fascinating. There's so much valuable out there. and my is about bringing it together. So thank you for joining me and look forward to seeing you soon.

Sarah Rozenthuler: I've been delighted and all the very best for your own writing and

Helen Wada: Thank you, Sarah. Take care.

Sarah Rozenthuler: Thank you. Bye-Bye.

Helen Wada: You for listening to the Human Wise Podcast. Don't forget to check out the show notes below. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with your network. To get in touch, you can find me, Helen Wada or the Human Advantage on LinkedIn, or visit www.thehumanadvantage.co uk. I'd love to hear from you if any of the topics discussed.

Resonated or struck inspiration. [00:41:00] Let's keep this conversation going and build better business together. See you next time.