Human Wise
Host and expert coach Helen Wada is a strong believer in the commercial advantage of being human at work.
With over 25 years commercial experience, Helen has seen an opportunity for businesses to do things differently – a sweet spot where a coaching approach and commercial focus can co-exist to build a more human working world.
This podcast is for anyone in business who believes that a better way of working is out there: better for teams, for organisations and, ultimately, for society as a whole.
We'll hear from senior leaders, founders, people on the ground and professionals from a variety of different disciplines, learning from their unique wisdom and experience.
So, if you're ready to make the human advantage your commercial advantage, join Helen and guests every other week on all major podcast directories.
Human Wise
Ep18: Harnessing Change Through Storytelling with Dr. Susanne Evans
Welcome to Human Wise, the podcast that explores the commercial advantage of being human at work.
With host Helen Wada, executive coach and founder of The Human Advantage, each episode will explore what being human at work looks like across a wide range of industries, from people in senior management to those on the ground.
In this episode of the Human Wise podcast, is joined by Dr. Suzanne Evans, an organization and change consultant specializing in transformation. Suzanne discusses her new book, 'Change Stories,' and emphasizes the importance of considering the human aspect of organizational change.
The conversation covers how effective change management involves understanding the emotions and daily lives of employees, using storytelling to enhance communication, and maintaining curiosity and optimism in the workplace. Helen and Suzanne also explore practical tips for leaders to foster deeper connections and successfully navigate change.
Topics Discussed:
- Harnessing change through storytelling
- Effective communication during organizational change
- Challenges in Implementing Change Management Programs
- Practical Tips for Leading Organizational Transformation
About Dr. Susanne Evans
- Order ChangeStories: How to have powerful conversations, tell inspiring stories and build engagement for transformation
- More about Feldspar Consulting
- Follow Dr. Evans on LinkedIn
I founded Feldspar Consulting Limited in 2007 after a 10 year consultancy career in Big 4 consultancy firms. I wanted to create a consultancy firm that offered exceptional customer service and the latest thinking in change management and HR consultancy, but priced in a way that made it accessible and affordable to organisations of all sizes. My aim was also to provide a more creative and individualistic approach to organisation change, to reflect the circumstances of each individual and organisation.
Since then, I have worked as a consultant, coach and trainer across a variety of sectors including professional services, property, IT, veterinary practices, utilities, education, local and central government, financial services and insurance. My change work focuses on using storytelling and appreciative inquiry techniques to increase involvement and engagement with change and to create a more human approach to change. As well as working in the field of organisation change, I also provide consultancy advice to organisations in areas such as performance management, talent management, leadership development, learning and development and other aspects of people management.
My work is underpinned by the research that I undertook to complete a PhD in Organisational Change at the University of Birmingham in 2020. In this research I discovered that there was a need to approach organisation change differently. To make it more human centred and to enable people at all levels to feel involved and engaged in the change.
Outside of work, I enjoy swimming, history and archaeology and often use these as metaphors to discuss various aspects of change. For example, I often liken working in organisations to undertaking an archaeological excavation, where you have to dig throu
Further links to follow:
Helen Wada: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/helen-wada
The Human Advantage: https://www.thehumanadvantage.co.uk/
Ep18: Harnessing Change Through Storytelling with Dr. Susanne Evans
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Welcome
Helen Wada: Hello, and welcome to another episode of human wise. I'm absolutely delighted to have Suzanne Evans joining me for this conversation. Suzanne and I met, I'm just trying to think Suzanne, it was two or three years ago, wasn't it? I can't remember how that connection came about, but we met and I was on your podcast a long time ago.
That's my first entry into podcasting. And I said, you know when I, get the podcast up and running, I would love to have you again as a guest and, here we are. And this is a really special time for you to be here with me because your book change stories has just been published 12th of November, an organization and change consultant specializing in change and transformation, but really looking at the human side of change and your change stories methodology, which I'm sure we'll hear a little bit about in a moment.
Really sung to me. And so I'm delighted to have you on the [00:01:00] show to talk all things, change, transformation, and being human. So welcome.
Susanne Evans: Thank you. And thank you for having me. As you say, we met a while ago and actually to be here and your podcast is up and running and very successful. It's really lovely to be back. And this time me talking to you rather than the other way around.
Helen Wada: And we're talking about being human and I always love to give the listens. I feel, you know, who are you? I've kind of done the blurb on the back of the book, but what would your friends and family, who, how would they describe Suzanne?
Suzanne's Background and Curiosity
Susanne Evans: I think, the first thing they probably say is just a curiosity about everything from a really young age. Just, I think that's what drives me is learning, finding out things, trying to understand what makes people tick, trying to understand what makes organizations tick. So that's, really been a fundamental thing.
I think of my whole life and my whole career is, that curiosity and an appetite for learning. I think an enthusiasm, I think probably a lot of my family would say [00:02:00] like a tigger ish level of optimism about the world. I, think that's, at the core of it. And I think it's probably why. I keep doing what I'm doing is, there's always something new to learn.
But I remain forever optimistic about the workplace and the world in general, but obviously the world of work, which is why we're here to, that there's good in it. And people are generally good and people want to get the best out of people from each other. And I think that's what drives a lot of my work.
Helen Wada: Yeah, no I, love that. And I think. You know, that's why we connected and I, we rewind the clock back to about 2006 and I was saying before, we jumped on the recording, I did a master's in management development and organizational change because I, love that continuing learning. I looked at the NBA, actually, I was more interested in the people side of things.
And my thesis for the masters was about how emotional connections are [00:03:00] impacted by a period of emotional change by a bit of corporate change and what that means for how you need to lead change across an organization, what it means to the business, what it means to the people and the successful outcomes as a result.
And I think that really, you know, linking into what you've been doing and, the human side of change. I'm really curious using your word.
Human Side of Organizational Change
Helen Wada: What does being human at work mean to you? And maybe aren't maybe with the lens of change on that as well.
Susanne Evans: I think for me, and definitely with that change management, What goes wrong in organizations when they're trying to create change is they forget the human side of it. It becomes a process. It becomes a project plan. You know, often the changes that I get involved in are big transformation programs and it can become very driven by the process and by achieving timescales and following the Gantt chart and the fact that there are people in the organization who will [00:04:00] be impacted by this change.
It's sometimes forgotten about. And even on the biggest programs, and especially when it's a technology implementation, it becomes seen as the technology is the change. And actually it's not. It's the fact that people have to use it in their day to day work. So I think for me, if you're trying to change your organization in a human way.
The people have to be at the heart of it. And what that means is talking about the change in an easy to understand way So that they know what's going to happen to them and not forgetting that even if this is just We're going to implement a new version of oracle or sap or people soft or whatever But at the end of the day, there's a human at the other end of that computer And that has to be at the core of it.
And you need to make sure that people know what's going to happen. They need to know what's in it for them. They need to be reassured that they're going to be looked after and taken care of throughout the process. And that's what makes change easier if you come at it from that perspective, [00:05:00] because at the end of the day, what you're changing is people.
That's the only thing you can change in an organization.
Helen Wada: it's, I get that.
Challenges in Change Management
Helen Wada: And we've, you know I've worked as a consultant in my time and, yes, the people element is always there. We, you and I sit here, we know it. We say it. I think a lot of people do know it. I don't think we're saying anything new. I'm just being, you know, But it still doesn't happen. What we hear is still the stories that it's a nightmare.
I don't understand what's going on, what is impacting for me. And then, what you end up is you end up with so much noise in the system. And that's what, I've seen experience with the clients that I work with, the amount of wasted time with noise, where communication isn't clear or where people haven't failed to understand what the knock on impacts are. What was, what's your research showing you in this space?
Susanne Evans: Well, I think it's interesting. I think [00:06:00] you're right. Everyone knows this stuff, and yet quite often it doesn't happen. I think there's a number of reasons for that. One is because I think there's a perception that it's hard, that it's difficult to, engage that side of things. I think sometimes it feels easier to deal with the process.
I was having a conversation on LinkedIn only a couple of days ago actually about using PowerPoint slides to communicate change and how people get caught up in making the PowerPoint slides rather than thinking about what it is they're actually trying
Helen Wada: Oh my goodness. Were you in the coaching session that I had this morning? I'll tell you about that in a minute.
Susanne Evans: But you know, people get caught up on that because it's easier, it's less scary for a leader getting out there and, you know, Speaking to people from the heart is, and being vulnerable is much harder than actually, you know, standing up behind a deck of PowerPoints and doing a town hall about what's going to happen.
So I think the default is to, Oh, that, that feels a bit exposing. I'm going to, I'm going to do it. And, but I also think there's been a bit of a lack of [00:07:00] other ways of doing things. So my, research came about because my background's in big four consulting like yours. And and there's a certain way of doing things in those organizations, which is quite process driven.
And I think, A lot of people who are in leadership positions, they believe and they have learned that the way to do change is following a model and following a series of steps. And because that's what they're taught and that's maybe what they learn when they're doing their own studies, or they might have consultancy and you've told them to do that.
Actually, there's a bit of a lack of other things, you know, what are the other things you could do? It's not to say don't have a project plan and all that. It's important. But how, what are the things to do that I can do to connect with people? And that's part of the reason why my book came about is because I think there's a bit of a gap there and people are a bit frightened of stepping into a different space that isn't perhaps.
the normal way of doing things. Although, interestingly, stories, which is what I write about, stories and organizations is becoming a bit more mainstream which is [00:08:00] good.
Importance of Storytelling in Change
Helen Wada: So tell me a little bit more about that connection piece. So you talk about it in the book, but what does connection mean? And for people that are listening to this and I'm reading the blog, so what is it that we can be doing? To really foster these deeper connections that you talk about.
Susanne Evans: Well there's a few things that are at the heart of the book, and one of them is storytelling, which I'll come back to. But I think for me, what's missing in a lot of organizations generally, but also during periods of change, is a sense of, you know, questions. So it's going back to curiosity again.
So much of communication about change is advocacy for change. So it's the leader of the organization trying to convince people that change is a good idea rather than actually getting out there into the organization and understanding what the problems are. So this involves talking to people. You just need to go out and speak to people and understand what people's life is like every day and what this change that you're proposing, how that might help.
And I think that's one of [00:09:00] the first questions that we need to ask during a period of change is, what is it that we're doing? Why are we doing it now? And how does it help? And if it doesn't help anything, then you probably need to ask yourself whether you actually need to do it. There's always change that it doesn't help, you know, make it regulatory or something like that.
But, you know, the bulk of the time, we need to be able to show what we're doing, how it's going to help people. At the end of the day, what people are interested in. on a personal basis is what's in it for me. And you have to be able to demonstrate that. So to do that, you have to know how people work and what people's jobs are like.
So that idea of inquiry, I think, is really important to begin with. I think what's also really important is understanding the organization and taking time to really listen and hear to what's going on in the organization. And this is not the kind of official, channels, you know, the corporate story. It's not that sort of thing.
It's the stories that are told in the organization about what it means to work there. And as a leader, you might not hear those very often, but I think it's [00:10:00] incumbent upon change practitioners and leaders to get out there and, hear what's going on. in the organization, because that tells you a lot about how things are.
And I've got loads of examples, which I can share if we've got time, about how things have gone wrong when these sorts of stories haven't been heard. So I think that's the second thing.
Practical Tips for Effective Change
Susanne Evans: And then the other thing for me is, the way we connect with people is through using story in our communications. So there's lots of research out there to show that our brains are wired for story.
So we are narrative beings. Our brains connect the docks and create a story, particularly in situations where we're not particularly uncertain of what's going on. So, and yet when we're communicating with people in organizations, we try and do it in quite a different way. So going back to the example of the PowerPoint deck and the town hall, that's the classic kind of way we might communicate with people during a change.
But, that's not how the human brain works, so if we want people to connect with us and [00:11:00] with our message, we have to use a story, because that's how the brain works.
Helen Wada: It's interesting. I go back to the conversation that I had exactly this morning talking, somebody was preparing a, big presentation and they were talking about carving out time to do slides and as you would expect, and we turned it on its head and I said, well, Actually, what if the slides for the last thing that you did, what's the story that you wanted to tell?
And, when I'm working with people, I, you know, it's come across, well, what do you want people to think? What do you want people to feel? What do you want them to be saying? And what do you want them to do on the back of it? You know, and it's those, the first two really for me, it's that thinking piece and the feeling piece.
Because as you said, you know, we're all thinking about what's in it for me. We all have experiences that form the opinions that we make in a moment. Whether that's through a period of organizational change, whether you might be going for a new job, whether it's in my old background, whether you're, trying to win work and you're in a [00:12:00] sales process. Every conversation you have, the person on the other side or the people on the other side are, forming their own opinions of what they're hearing. And if you cannot connect with them, then you've lost the slides were almost useless because you've lost the connection.
Susanne Evans: Exactly, and I think, you're exactly right, we approach all of this the wrong way, so we approach any of this communications from, what do I want to tell these people, or what do I want to tell this person, and the way we need to be doing it is what do I need them to know. And Phil Wakenall, who's been on my podcast and does a lot of coaching of people to do TED Talks.
He talks about, we need to come at it from what transformation do I want to create in these people? So it's what change do I want to create in them, rather than what do I need to tell them? So absolutely. Slides, I have nothing against PowerPoint, by the way, but slides have to
come last.
Helen Wada: of a comfort blanket sometimes,
Susanne Evans: It is, I'm a massive fan of Gar Reynolds.
So his book, Presentations [00:13:00] Zen, if anyone listening has to do presentations and has to use PowerPoint, 100 percent get a copy of that book because it will change how you use PowerPoint. And he's, you know, Not a fan of it necessarily but recognizes that it needs to be used but in a different sort of way So it's about visual storytelling through the slides rather than let's write loads of PowerPoints about the thing that I want to say So I think and his view is always you work out what you want to say You put it onto a series of cards or post it notes You move it around until you're happy with it, and then you write the slides
Helen Wada: Do you know, I'm going to refer back to another coaching conversation I had. It's interesting because I'm in the process of starting to write my book. As you know, Suzanne, so I'm much earlier in the journey which you will remember maybe the post it note exercise at the beginning where you're kind of thinking about your topics and putting them all down.
But I was talking about that for a CV the other day. So the story you want to tell, particularly later on in your career, where you've done an awful lot, you've got lots of experiences, [00:14:00] and you're trying to convey that to an audience in one or two pages. And working with somebody, where do I start? What are your key topics?
Get your post it notes and then brainstorm underneath that. What do you want to, what do you want them to know? What do you want them to hear? And then what you've got is your themes. then it might not be PowerPoint, it might be Word, for example, but yeah, love it.
Susanne Evans: It's, yeah, and I've talked before with other people about the use of story in that personal context. So, you know, if someone's been made redundant, how do they go into an interview? What is the story that they tell about the situation they find themselves in? How do you introduce yourself? at networking events and things like that, it's having a story so much more engaging rather than a series of I did this, I did that, you know how do you, introduce yourself to people?
And I, I have a story that I, it's in my book, it's my story, but it's how I got to where I am now in terms of the journey that's led me there. Well, that's far more interesting for people to hear [00:15:00] about than a list of my employers, you know.
Helen Wada: So tell me a little bit more about that, because I think that's interesting.
Suzanne's Journey to Storytelling
Helen Wada: You're here, you're an entrepreneur, you're leading your own business. And many of our listeners will be in that space, but many won't be. And it's like how, did you get to where you are from the consultancy background that you had, like I did many years ago,
Susanne Evans: Well, it's funny because I think when I left consulting, so I did 10 years of big four and I have absolutely nothing against the big four consultancy. It was some of the best years of my life.
So
Helen Wada: Huge learning experience. I'm the same,
Susanne Evans: enormous. But I started to get a bit frustrated. about the, I suppose the lack of flexibility in, approach, but I didn't really know why I didn't know why I was frustrated.
I just, I had a feeling there was a different way of doing things. So I started doing interim contracts and contract work myself back in 2007. And I did a project where they were introducing a new performance management system and they had some consultants in to [00:16:00] support them with it. And they were, working with the leadership team to develop the story of the company and the story about why this change was needed.
And I met, another consultant there, John Harding, who's gone on to become a great friend of mine. And he gave me an article, which was in the Harvard Business Review by Robert McKee storytelling that moves people. It's quite an old article, but it's, like, if you want to learn about storytelling and why it works, read it.
It's amazing. And I read it and it was like, Oh, wow. That's amazing. Like a light bulb going off. And I started to think to myself, well, maybe that's the key. Maybe that's what I've been missing. Maybe that's why change always feels so hard because we're not building some of these principles about moving people and creating emotion and telling story.
And I kind of, You know, you know, these things they're interesting, but you don't really know what to do with them. So I read them and thought, that's interesting, put it to one side. And I started doing more projects and, but it was kind of niggling at me a bit. So I started doing a bit of reading and [00:17:00] a bit of research myself.
And then probably about two years later, I happened to be doing some visiting, lecturing at Birmingham University and chatting away with the lecturer there. And she said, Oh, what are you up to at the moment? And I was chatting and I'm doing this stuff, this project, and I've been doing this reading.
It's quite interesting. And she said, Oh, you should do a PhD and delve into that in more detail. Cause she said, I think the idea of storytelling and change is really interesting. And I kind of thought, yeah, you know, and then I went away and thought about it and now, and then it was like really needling at me.
Well, maybe I could. And so. I did. And so I started that in 2011 and I did it part time. So whilst I was juggling running a business and being a mom and, you know, took me, it
took me eight years. It was a really long time. But through that just learned so much about it and it really changed my practice in terms of resetting how I looked at change resistance, completely reframing how I work with my clients.
Trying to build story into all aspects of my [00:18:00] change work. So I finished that in 2020. I had a bit of a rest for a while, but people kept saying, Oh, you should write a book. And, you know, you've done your thesis. Surely you could turn that into a book. Well, no, I couldn't. I didn't use a single word of my thesis in my actual book.
So that's another 40, 000 words I had to write on the original 80, 000 words. But yeah, it's kind of, it's been a series of breadcrumbs, I think, that's led me to this point. And now, I'm so passionate about the idea of everyone being able to use story in the way that they work, and the way that they interact with other people.
You know, whether you're a leader or a change practitioner, there is something in storytelling for everyone to build into their practice, just to make work easier.
Helen Wada: And I, love that and I love stories. I think we all do tend to remember the stories that you told as you said. I work with a lot of professional people that are, I'm not creative. That's not my strength. And my husband's an accountant. No, you do the creative, I'm an accountant, but [00:19:00] a little bit of the creative stuff, where do we start?
Right. So, so where do we start? And you've got the beautiful model in your book, which I love all the people in the lady, I think it was the banjo and do your reflection inquiry, the attention. Where do I start?
ARIA Model for Change
Susanne Evans: So the book is divided into three bits, really, and each bit takes you through a little bit of the journey to be able to build story into your practice a bit more. So the first bit is about the first section is about why change doesn't work and why it can feel difficult. And for all the reasons we've already talked about.
And a new approach is needed. The second section is the model. So the ARIA's model, which for me are the five things that you need to be thinking about if you just want to become more aware of stories around you and more able to use them. So the first of the A is about paying attention to what you hear and see, just build
Helen Wada: And just, just pause, pausing on that because that for me is I bring that [00:20:00] in a lot to my coaching. So the attention piece, the a it's easier said than done. And the reason I slow down when I say that is, is one of the big things that I've learned through my coaching. And, you know I've, done presentations.
I've worked with groups and I walk here. Of course I can listen. Of course. I know what questions are. But, actually I would hasten to say to anybody listening to this about, do you really pay attention? Because paying attention, not just to what's said, but how it's said. The specific words, I know you talk about this, the specific words that are actually used.
So, tell me just a little bit more about the depth of that attention, because I think it's really, important.
Susanne Evans: It's massively important and very underrated, I would say, as a skill. And I think It's it is all of the things that you said. It's about having that different levels of awareness. So awareness of self, so a real good understanding [00:21:00] of yourself, your good points, bad points, blind spots, all of that is massively important.
Your impact on other people. And that is an ongoing. journey, as we all know, that we continue to discover things about ourselves that are good or bad, depending on what we find out. But I think that's really important. For me then, it is that real awareness of what's going on around you. And it's exactly as you said, what people are saying, how they're saying it, what they look like when they're saying it.
And this can be really challenging in a hybrid workplace. How do you understand how someone's feeling if you can't be in the room with them? So there's that aspect of it, but it's also about getting out there and listening to what's going on. And I'll tell an, I'll tell you a story as an example. So I worked in an organization a while ago that was going through a, redundancy and restructuring process.
The first time they'd ever done anything like that. So it was a big deal. And they gave people a lot of [00:22:00] notice about a year's notice that this office was going to be shut. And, you know, really human centered way of doing change. Lots of support, lots of advice, outplacement, everything. In this office, they had put all their Christmas decorations up for Christmas, and then they took them all down, and they would put them under the stairs in the office, and the plan was for them to be given to a local charity for them to use.
Well, the person who was supposed to do that left the organization, and so the Christmas decorations never got taken away, so they stayed under the stairs. And this story started to circulate. In this office that because the Christmas decorations were there, the office was going to stay open and because the kind of, the, force, the dominant force in the organization was inertia because they'd never done much change people genuinely started to believe that was true.
And so when finally a year had passed and the HR team and the leadership team came into this office to, to make [00:23:00] the final people redundant and give them their notice, all hell broke loose because people genuinely thought the office wasn't going to close. And because no one was there to hear this story at the time, no one was able to take preventative action.
Or if people did hear it, they just thought, Oh, it's silly. It's not. It doesn't mean anything. For me, there's no better example of attention than that story, that you needed, if you were there, you needed to pay attention to it and not dismiss it as nothing. If you weren't there, why weren't you there?
You should have been there listening to it. So that's why it's important. And that's how you do it. You do it just by being out there talking to people.
Helen Wada: that's, it's great. And it is, amazing, isn't it? What goes back to a little bit of that, the noise that I was talking about, that you, the waves can be created almost out of nothing. That, that can waste so much time and, drive the wrong energy. Sorry I stopped you 'cause you were moving on because the, r is around reflection,
Susanne Evans: Yes.
Helen Wada: so
Susanne Evans: Yeah. And I think it goes, [00:24:00] it's linked into what you were saying about noise. I think organizations are very noisy places. There's a lot going on. We dash from one waiting to another for one zoom call to another. There's no time to stop. And so reflection for me is partly. Giving yourself space in the day to reflect on what's been going on, to think about your own effectiveness, to reflect on what happened in meetings and how you want to deal with it, rather than jumping from one thing to the next.
But also from a change in a project management perspective, it's about having that time built in to the program to stop every now and again and just check. Is this doing what we want it to do? Is it going in the right direction? And there's a brilliant phrase called dysfunctional momentum, which was it's in an MIT Sloan management article.
And it was a piece of work that was done with people I think people fighting forest fires in the US. So quite an interesting group of people. And the researchers found that projects can just keep going and going, even when everyone [00:25:00] knows it's terrible and it's not going to deliver because It just takes on a life of its own.
So I think it's really important to build in to reflect every day, but all the time in projects just to make sure it's going the right way.
Helen Wada: And you talk about that in projects, I talk about that with the, human sort of the coaching framework that I use when we're talking about sales conversation and things, but they act and adapt in the moment in a conversation because you said, you know, sometimes, particularly if you're on teams or Zoom, emotions are hard to read or can be hard to read.
And so that pausing and reflection, even within a meeting, so you're talking about pausing and reflection in the grand scheme of the program, which I think absolutely, but you bring that back to you every day, how often do we just keep going and going when actually we're going off track or we're not servicing the agenda that we if we, did set it up front, which doesn't always happen by the way, but if you do set the agenda that you're going off [00:26:00] course, and so that, yeah.
Reflection point is absolutely critical and it links into the inquiry, doesn't it? In the areas model. So in terms of your inquiring, are we on the right track? Is there anything else we've missed? What else should we be thinking about?
Susanne Evans: Yeah, exactly. And I think you know, we talked about asking questions already, but that is so underrated. I think, you know, reflection is a superpower for me, but so is inquiry. And I think often leaders are slightly afraid of asking too many questions or inviting questions in case they get asked things they don't know the answer to.
Or in case it sort of creates a dissent. I think there's sometimes this fear of opening things up too much. And, I mentioned earlier about how my research has really led me to reframe resistance, but it genuinely has, because I think when I started out in change consulting, resistance was definitely seen as the behavior of people who were annoying rather than a genuine [00:27:00] wish.
to find out more. And I think often people who ask a lot of questions in organizations, they just like, they want the detail. They want to understand it. And going back to self awareness, I am not a detailed person. You know, that is not my way. I like to live. I like the big picture thing, which is great, but not everyone is like that.
And I have to recognize, if I'm writing a piece of change communications, I'll probably, my happy place is in that, you know, not, let's not get into the details, but people want that. So this is where I need help with things. I need someone to go, well, why don't we talk about this? Or we probably need a bit more detail about that, Suzanne.
And I've realized over time that these people who I thought were just being a bit annoying by asking those questions, for some reason, they, for whatever reason their, need was not met by the change program as it was.
Helen Wada: Do you know, and I think that, you know, going back to what you were saying about, you know, why do people not want to ask questions? Maybe, you know, they're worried that they don't know, they don't know the answers [00:28:00] and that sort of getting out of your comfort zone. But Most people, I think it's true to say, want to do a great job.
They want to make things work and you kind of, your natural, our natural instincts are to go, I've done something wrong. So that worry in ourselves, where it's being met with resistance. What have I done? Why isn't it working? What more could I do? Whereas actually. when asking yourself a question about where that person might be coming from, puts a whole new lens on it.
Because often it's not something about the way that we've gone about something. It's just, we may not have thought about something from where they're coming from. And that can play out in, all sorts of work organizations, but particularly during the period of change. And you talk about it brilliantly in your book about, you know, thinking about.
their perspective. If I was in their shoes, if I was in their head, what might I be thinking? How can you get curious, coming [00:29:00] back to where we started, about what's important to them? How can I share the messages in a way that works?
Susanne Evans: Exactly. And I, think. Instead of becoming annoyed that someone's asking a question of something that you're doing, you can ask yourself, well, where exactly, as you said, where is that coming from? And what are they questioning? Is it the change itself? Is it the way it's being done? Is it something else that's going on in the organization or for them personally, that's leading them to ask lots of questions and being, I think it's for leaders and change practitioners.
really good to reframe that and see it as a super engagement rather than resistance. I'd rather have someone asking me lots of questions than people just sitting there with their arms folded, not paying any attention.
Helen Wada: And that, I guess, wraps up to sort of the A the, appreciation, in body appreciation, where all this is coming from, and then ultimately the storytelling,
Susanne Evans: Yeah,
exactly.
Helen Wada: is where you land on, isn't it?
Susanne Evans: It is you use all of that to help you start to craft a story [00:30:00] about what's going to happen. And it's about setting the context. So there's the classic story structure, you know, if people are interested in using story, you think of any film, book, cartoon. Anything that you've enjoyed watching.
There'll be a bit of scene setting at the beginning. Then there'll be a load of stuff that happens to the protagonist. Then usually something goes wrong. And then they solve the thing that goes wrong. And then they're successful at the end. That's the kind of classic story arc that goes like that. And you can think about using story and organizations in the same way.
In that you, you set the scene. So say we're doing change. You talk a bit about where the organization is at. why, what the change is and why it's needed. You might then paint a picture using words of what this new, the new world post change is going to look like. And I think the bit that a lot of organizations don't like doing in their change communications is the bit where something goes because they don't want to [00:31:00] have to talk about that.
But actually, It's really important because I said at the start about how stories create emotion. Well, part of the reason that it creates emotion is because you have that kind of roller coaster of, Oh, it's really good. Oh, it's really bad. Oh, it's really good again. And if, it's just good all the way through, it's not as engaging.
So it's, not about scaring people, but it's about having an acknowledgement of what. you as the leader might be concerned about, but what you're doing to make sure that doesn't happen. So when I work with leaders and we're looking at a strategy, I always get them to tell me what scares you about this strategy.
And then we put that into their story because that's what makes it believable, right? Otherwise it's just, it becomes consultancy speak or management speak
Helen Wada: Yeah.
Susanne Evans: is going to be. And it might not be all time.
Helen Wada: It puts back, and you know, maybe in Enderal and Conscious of Time, it's flown by, these always do.
Final Thoughts and Tips
Helen Wada: It's putting the human back into these conversations, right? It's thinking about you know, the framework that, that [00:32:00] I use works equally well, you know, how you show up. It's about understanding others.
It's about looking at the right mindset. It's about how you act, how you adapt, and then take things forward. And what are the next steps that we're going to do to, go from one to the other so much richness there, Suzanne, and I really would encourage everybody to. That's interested to grab a copy of
change stories. Well, I got me, it's brilliant. Lots of insight talking about the hero's journey. It's a real practical guides as well. So, so really well done and inspiration for me. And it's at the start of my journey. Just as we wrap up, always leave us one top tip and one question. So people are about to embark on a period of change.
What would you be to them as insight from your years of wisdom? And then a good coach loves a good question. So what question might you ask people to reflect on?
Susanne Evans: So I would say a top tip around change management is never forget the people. [00:33:00] So it doesn't matter what the change is. It could be a big technology transformation. It could be asking people to wear a uniform at work. It could be we're having to move the car park around, which incidentally are some of the hardest changes I've ever had to work on.
But
Helen Wada: goodness. Yeah. What coffee machine are we going to
Susanne Evans: That's a whole, other podcast. But at the root of it all is people. So I think when I worked in HR, when I worked in consulting, I always liked to think to myself, if it were me, if I was in this situation, how would I like to be treated? And what would I like to happen to me? So I think that's both a question and an insight, maybe.
But if I can have another question, I think what I would invite people to ask themselves is the next time that they have to communicate something, just look at what they're planning on doing and ask themselves, is there an opportunity to build a story out of this to make it more engaging?
Helen Wada: Lovely. Love it. Super, helpful. Wonderful [00:34:00] conversation. We could talk all afternoon, but I mean, the listeners probably got to get back to work and you and I
Susanne Evans: probably got other things to do.
Helen Wada: It has been absolutely brilliant to have you on the show Suzanne and look forward to seeing where the book goes to and all the work that you're doing ahead.
Susanne Evans: Thank you so much. And thank you for having me on. It's been lovely
Helen Wada: See you soon.
Susanne Evans: to see you.